sight picture

[Tom Thomson]

I have noticed that after each shot the cross hairs come to rest about an inch to the left of the bull. Savage 110 in 308 - light recoil plinker load (Trail Boss) - front bag and comb riser. What is the gun telling me?
tommyt

 

[Jet]

Tom

Lots of things could be the cause. Torque, your body poston behind the rifle, uneven rest, etc.

When I shoot my standard/factory rifles off a rest or harris bipod I never expect them to track staight back to the exact same point of aim each time.

When I shoot in a prone unsupported position I do expect the rifle to return very close to the same point of aim after each shot.

Good Shooting

Rich

 

[BoydAllen]

When shooting from a bench, generally, I prefer to have slight to no cheek contact with the stock. A few years ago, a friend needed some help with a custom long range hunting rifle that had an adjustable comb. It was adjusted high, and jammed into his face. The front rest was well out on the forend, and he was throwing shots with regularity. I had him move the front rest back so that the bag contacted the forend closer to the action, behind the midpoint of the forend, adjust his stock so that it barely grazed his face, not put any down pressure behind the tang with his thumb, pull straight back into his shoulder with the second and third fingers of his trigger hand, and position his hand so that the trigger was in the middle of the first pad of his finger, and he was pulling the trigger straight back. I also cautioned him about his trigger pull, telling him that he should add pressure until it went off, but not try to make it fire at a particular instant. There was also the matter of follow through. I told him that he should avoid any reaction to the rifle going off, and that using double ear protection would help with a possible sound flinch. Essentially he should be like an inanimate object until a bit after the recoil was over, better a bit too long than to move too quickly. His next four shots went into about a quarter of an inch center to center. Evidently his load was a good one. Being a quick learner, after that, his groups from various rifles became much more representative of the rifle and load rather than the shooter.

 

[22BRGUY]

When shooting from a bench, generally, I prefer to have slight to no cheek contact with the stock. A few years ago, a friend needed some help with a custom long range hunting rifle that had an adjustable comb. It was adjusted high, and jammed into his face. The front rest was well out on the forend, and he was throwing shots with regularity. I had him move the front rest back so that the bag contacted the forend closer to the action, behind the midpoint of the forend, adjust his stock so that it barely grazed his face, not put any down pressure behind the tang with his thumb, pull straight back into his shoulder with the second and third fingers of his trigger hand, and position his hand so that the trigger was in the middle of the first pad of his finger, and he was pulling the trigger straight back. I also cautioned him about his trigger pull, telling him that he should add pressure until it went off, but not try to make it fire at a particular instant. There was also the matter of follow through. I told him that he should avoid any reaction to the rifle going off, and that using double ear protection would help with a possible sound flinch. Essentially he should be like an inanimate object until a bit after the recoil was over, better a bit too long than to move too quickly. His next four shots went into about a quarter of an inch center to center. Evidently his load was a good one. Being a quick learner, after that, his groups from various rifles became much more representative of the rifle and load rather than the shooter.

AWESOME ADVICE +++++

 

[BoydAllen]

I think that that is more of an issue when shooting from some position, supporting the rifle with your body, and using iron sights. I can shoot with both eyes open, but often, right before I break the shot, shooting from a bench I close my off eye, and have not observed any disadvantage in doing so. I think that like there are degrees of handedness, where handiness with ones off hand can vary quite a lot, the same is true (a guess) of eye dominance. If I point at something that is to the left of my field of view, and do the dominance test, I get left dominant, If I reverse that, it shows right. This situation can cause me to see a flag that I am viewing with my right eye (while looking through a rifle's scope with my left) in the scope image. If I concentrate I can prevent this, but on the fly, it is easier to close an eye.

 

[4xforfun]

When shooting from a bench, generally, I prefer to have slight to no cheek contact with the stock. A few years ago, a friend needed some help with a custom long range hunting rifle that had an adjustable comb. It was adjusted high, and jammed into his face. The front rest was well out on the forend, and he was throwing shots with regularity. I had him move the front rest back so that the bag contacted the forend closer to the action, behind the midpoint of the forend, adjust his stock so that it barely grazed his face, not put any down pressure behind the tang with his thumb, pull straight back into his shoulder with the second and third fingers of his trigger hand, and position his hand so that the trigger was in the middle of the first pad of his finger, and he was pulling the trigger straight back. I also cautioned him about his trigger pull, telling him that he should add pressure until it went off, but not try to make it fire at a particular instant. There was also the matter of follow through. I told him that he should avoid any reaction to the rifle going off, and that using double ear protection would help with a possible sound flinch. Essentially he should be like an inanimate object until a bit after the recoil was over, better a bit too long than to move too quickly. His next four shots went into about a quarter of an inch center to center. Evidently his load was a good one. Being a quick learner, after that, his groups from various rifles became much more representative of the rifle and load rather than the shooter.

Boyd,

I agree with everything you said EXCEPT the first on bag position. In my humble opinion
(only an opinion) I space the bags as far apart as possable. The rear bag is all the way back to just off of the recoil pad (if so equipped), and the front is only far enough back so as to keep the gun from falling off of the bag during recoil. Of course that distance back depends on many variables...how hard the gun kicks, free recoil or hard hold, etc....

My reasoning......think of the sight radius on an open sights gun. The further apart the sights are, the easier it is to aim steady. A little movement on a short sight radius moves the impact a big distance. Same goes for bag spacing. If your spacing is 18" and you move the front bag 1/2 inch left you will move the impact X inches at 100 yards. The same 1/2 inch movement with a 36 inch bag spacing will move the impact 1/2 X at 100.

The same goes for rear bag movement, or any combination of the two. A longer bag spacing will minimalize any movement made by the gun/bag combo and , thus, group size.

Again..only my opinion, if it even makes sence.

Tod

 

[BoydAllen]

With factory stocks, I have tested, and it is on the basis of those actual repeated results that I have come to my conclusions. If you have a target stock, that it stiff enough, and well damped, that may be another matter. These ideas were developed by trial and error, with multiple tests, on different rifles.

Another common misconception that does all sorts of harm to groups is the idea that making as little contact with the rifle as possible, and or holding it as lightly as possible will produce the best results. Often the exact opposite is the case. The trick is that there are definite rules for how best to hold a rifle when shooting at the bench.

To illustrate the point, I have a benchrest rifle and rests that may be shot any of several different styles. It can be shot totally free recoil, and under extraordinary conditions I have shot five shots in the teens with both hands on the rifle, making firm contact all around. I find a lot of shooters have fixed ideas about how to shoot and do not experiment. Normally, with a new rifle, I don a lot of experimenting to see how it prefers to be rested and held.

I find that a lot of shooting benches are not very solid, and that many shooters do not have adequate equipment from which to shoot. I think that many have never shot with a setup that does not allow any movement of the rifle before it begins to recoil. Fortunately. locally, there are ranges that have benches that do not move at all, and I have a rest that I believe to be better suited than any commercial rest for shooting rounded factory stocks. It is not so much the rest, but rather the bag setup. In any case, having a rifle not move has never been an issue.

 

[Brians356]

Boyd,

What's your opinion of the trigger hand's thumb on the back of the trigger guard, rather than a conventional grasp of the stock (w/ thumb over the tang)? It's not exactly "free recoil" since the thumb takes recoil, and the butt pad can still be touching the shoulder (but just not pulled firmly against it with the trigger hand).

 

[BoydAllen]

Test and compare the results. If it works for you, with that particular rifle and rest setup, then it is correct. Free recoil should not be a goal, but rather a technique that may or may not work for a particular setup. Often I see shooters who would do better if they would not touch their rifles so lightly. Making contact with a rifle, can be done in ways that work well, or do not. Using a little imagination and doing some testing will usually sort this out. The fellows that I have observed often think that there is some "right" way to shoot, and will keep trying to do it that way over and over again, instead of doing some exploring. I recommend that you try some thing that may seem a little goofy or out of the box. They may not work, on the other hand you will never know unless you try. You might find something that works better. Have fun, and be safe.

 

[gotcha]

What does the crosshair do when you dry fire? Do you have a R/H or L/H twist?

 

[Brians356]

I have a rest that I believe to be better suited than any commercial rest for shooting rounded factory stocks. It is not so much the rest, but rather the bag setup. In any case, having a rifle not move has never been an issue.

Boyd,

Would you mind describing your bag setup for rounded factory stocks?

I have shot my best groups (when I was younger!) from the bench using a Harris rigid bipod attached to the front sling stud, and a bunny ear bag under the rear. But I have tried to get used to a simple conventional front bag rest and using one of its foot screw adjustments to fine tune elevation, rather than squeeze the rear bag.

 

[Lapua40X]

... What is the gun telling me?
tommyt

I'm not sure what I've missed in your questions that some of the other guys apparently see but if you're expecting an 8 pound .308 rifle with a right hand twist not to move 1/60 of a degree left when it fires off a round I think you'll need to chain it down pretty tight. I don't own a rifle that will allow me to hold the cross hairs on center perfectly after the shot - well, maybe my little rim fire.

 

[BoydAllen]

The bag is loose in the top, which has a 90 degree angle. The bag is old, many times washed stretch denim, filled with ordinary sand to the degree shown.

 

[Brians356]

Boyd,

Thanks, very interesting, as I have noted some of those tall "bulls bags" or "x-bags" up front actually work quite well on a stable bench. But they're harder to control vertical with, since they tend to slump or compress over time. Your idea is great since presumably you can fine tune vertical at the stand under the bag. Or do you raise-lower the rear bag?

I have also discovered I shoot pistol grips better than sporter stocks, e.g. my buddy's ARs. The more natural, relaxed hand position and trigger squeeze suit me better.

 

[BoydAllen]

This setup is on a threaded rod that allows for vertical adjustment. The whole thing is home made, and works better than any factory made bag that I have seen or tried for stocks of rounded profile. For whatever reason, shooters are generally not going to try something that they have not seen or read about before, which is fine with me, since I am not selling anything. For something like a 94 Winchester, I am not aware of anything that even comes close. For all of these shapes, it moves the support up along the sides rather than having the support directly underneath and having to deal with rocking issues. Once the bag has been formed to the stock, a little tapping, with the side of ones fist on the tops of the "ears" packs the bag a little and improves the fit. When I shoot this setup, I slide and squeeze the rear bag to make fine sighting adjustments, and continue to hold the rear bag in position as I shoot.

 

[Brians356]

Boyd,

That's very exciting, I'm going to get on making one. I have an old orange Outers front rest which I can use for the base, I just need to fit the vee part to the top of the Outers threaded post, with a set screw like the original bag platform. The Outers has a lightweight (cast aluminum or magnesium?) tripod base and bag rest, and is not ideal for competition shooting, but I improved mine by glass bedding the bag rest to the top of the threaded post, so it's no longer wobbly and quite serviceable now. I use one of the pointed, threaded "feet" (placed rearward) to fine tune elevation.

Thanks for the great idea!

 

[BoydAllen]

I suggest that you add a sub base under the original base since my experience has been that recoil will move things around too much. (My first rest was one like yours.)Mine has a base made of solid 1" steel square bars, and has a point to point spread of about 18", and with a slightly smaller replacement bag, weighs in at 14.5# the legs are in the same plane, flat, and the leveling screws at their ends take it off of the bench.

 

[JarheadAZ]

Boyd's narrative about addressing/adjusting the rifle for the shot is the most concise, best explanation I have seen on the subject. I think nearly all of us can earn from that post.

I have a technique I've used for a long time when shooting off the bipod, I think I first saw it being used at Cherry Ridge Range in the mid-1990's.

It involves the combined use of the bipod and a partially slack sling. The rifle is addressed in the chosen manner, with the sling adjusted a bit short of reaching the bench, ground, whatever. The non-shooting hand and arm are inserted between the sling and rifle, grasping the rear bag. As the shooter settles down into position, the upper body weight bears down on the sling, which supports the elbow just slightly above the bench, ground, whatever.

When the shot breaks, the body weight on the sling completely counteracts the bipod jump, preventing the crosshair shift. Done correctly, the image stays still enough to follow the bullet trace all the way to he target, usually allowing the shooter to call their own impacts. By encouraging follow-though, the tendency for the body to upset the rifle's stability is much reduced.

A key component of bipod jump relates to the shoulder's position behind the butt of the rifle.

Taking a moment, let's visualize how the bore axis extends rearward beyond the rifle's butt. If it passes straight through the shoulder's point of contact, muzzle jump is at it's smallest effect. Many shooters don't consider this relationship, and most of them tend to contact the rifle's butt somewhat below this more effective contact point. Some stocks are configured so that the better contact isn't even possible. The AR's straight line stock design is essentially perfect for reducing muzzle rise/jump.

Another issue is how the cheekbone can receive a significant portion of the recoil, resulting from the downward slant of the stock comb toward the butt in combination with muzzle jump. If the stock comb tapers downward toward the rear, this can affect the recoil sufficiently to interfere with proper follow-through, launching the head upward during the recoil cycle. Stocks that have a comb line parallel to the bore axis can reduce this tendency, and combs that slant upward toward the butt may be even better in that respect.

Greg Langelius

PS added 9/2
The stock on my M70 30-'06 deer rifle is a very old B&C composite stock that features an upward toward the rear comb angle. It was on the rifle when I bought it used, and I've never seen another like it. The butt pad is significantly lighter than most stocks, and the recoil axis is essentially oriented in a straight line through the shoulder. Perceived recoil appears much less than expected despite 48gr of IMR-4064 driving a Sierra 165gr Game King. The same load in an Axis II is a lot more noticeable.

 

[Brians356]

I think nearly all of us can earn from that post.

Is this one of those "Earn big $$$ from home without getting dressed in the morning!" dealies?

 

[Brians356]

...
It involves the combined use of the bipod and a partially slack sling. The rifle is addressed in the chosen manner, with the sling adjusted a bit short of reaching the bench, ground, whatever. The non-shooting hand and arm are inserted between the sling and rifle, grasping the rear bag. As the shooter settles down into position, the upper body weight bears down on the sling, which supports the elbow just slightly above the bench, ground, whatever.

Great idea! I'm going to try it. The only thing I can question is that the sling exerts significant side force on the rifle, since it is under the non-shooting elbow, and thus off to one side. Depending on the direction of twist, that side vector could actually augment the rifles natural tendency to jump either right or left. (I seem to recall my rifles want to jump towards the left, which is my non-shooting side.) Ideally (perhaps) the downward pressure on the sling would be as close to vertical as possible (i.e. pressure point directly under the bore.)

These are just my initial musings, subject to correction of course! ???