Sierra TMK’s is anybody….
- Thread starter 762willdo
- Start date
do you shoot br or fclass....that is kinda the point. large target cheaper bullet, small target better bullet, more money
I don’t need to ask him. You’re the one trying to make a distinction it’s made to some standard other than a production standard.
It's priced right where, or perhaps slightly better than, other Sierra bullets are right now. $182 / 500.
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And the guy's shooting the 131 Black Jacks, those are made
by Sierra. For someone to mention "produced for the masses"
Berger is no different. In my opinion, your just paying for the
name, as of late.
JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
I like the term produced for the masses. There are those who believe if they use all the latest, greatest, most elite and expensive items they become elite. That may or may not ease the way but in and of themselves with out doing the work only make you poorer and a legend in your own mind. Of course those folks know unless you follow that method to include a new rifle every year you have no hope of winning. It's usually the same groups who pushes allowing multiple guns to be fired in the same class and call it fair if they shoot 2 or 3 or 4 guns while 98% percent of the field shoot one as in any type of competition you can name.
You cannot define something by what it isn't. And the distinction thing is like saying "if you have to ask......" Berger used to be considered custom, they seem more production now. Are they BR bullets? Yes, some are, and others are long range, hunting, and many other things.
What you're paying for is Berger's design excellence and the the effort they put into fine-tuning their designs even after introduction. If you take 'once or twice in a generation' design excellence, those bullets that stand out from their competitors as superb all-rounders, most such recent models are Bergers. At one time, Sierra wore this crown with the original 308 155gn 'Palma' SMK and 6mm 107 MK as examples, but Berger has produced a slew of them over the last 15 years. In 308 alone, the 155.5gn LRBT; 185gn LRBT Juggernaut; 200gn 200.20X for instance.
I know many international level F-Class shooters who've tried alternatives and nearly always end up returning to a few Berger 7mm and 308 models. There are always exceptions. I had my best long-range 7mm Shehane results with the 180gn 284 Lapua Scenar-L as still does Paul Hill (at much higher levels than I ever attained).
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...-european-f-open-championship-with-7mm-rsaum/
and I'm still using ancient (cardboard box) 6mm 107s in my mid-range 6mmBR Light Gun, albeit with a lot of measuring, batching, trimming and pointing work needed for that generation of SMKs. Where Sierra has improved enormously in recent years is in production quality - their bullets are way, way more consistent out of the box than those of some years ago and are as best I can tell as good as, if not better than, any other leading mass produced match bullets.
One 'issue', problem even, with the TMKs is that whilst earlier generations of MKs tended to have common characteristics - eg tangent ogive, fairly short radius nose curves etc, each TMK is different and now encompass a mix of tangent, secant, and somewhere in-between designs. Look at the drawings and dimensions in Bryan Litz's book Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets 3rd edition and this shows up plainly. The 30-cal TMKs are all secant-ogive VLD types with 13-15 calibre nose radius values and Rt/R values of c. 0.55 (0.5 is the original Knox / Berger VLD; 1.0 is a true tangent model). The 284 160gn TMK is by contrast closer to a tangent model (10.06 cals radius / 0.84 Rt/R). This is a bullet that has performed very well indeed for me in mid-range 7mm-08, but its and other TMKs' BC values are down on equivalent Berger Hybrids. The new generation of super-heavy factory-pointed MKs are 'Super-VLDs' with such long noses and exceptionally high OALs that they seem to be incredibly finicky and barrel/chamber/velocity/external conditions-sensitive. (The 183gn 284 SMK has a 27.84 cal nose-radius and 0.37 Rt/R - the other calibre equivalents are similar - seemingly scaled versions of a single design. I couldn't get this bullet to shoot for me in 284 Win even in an 8-twist barrel and I've heard similar stories from others about other members of this 'family' in other calibres. Or ... they win matches in one outing then perform badly on the next in different temperature, pressure and wind conditions.)
Like I said, I've used the 160 7mm TMK very happily. I'm currently trying the 308 195gn TMK in 300 SAUM for F-Class with as yet distinctly so-so results. It's another true VLD design and is much harder to 'tune' than the 185 and original (ie pre 200.20X) 200gn Hybrids. It has a longer bearing surface than the Bergers, especially against the 200.20X so will generate more friction and 'pressure-out' at lower MVs, and its drag is higher ('Form factor': 0.987 v 0.944, 0.955, and 0.919 for the 185 / 200 / 200.20X Bergers respectively) and therefore a lower BC for same weight / SD values. In fact, its form factor is the same as the previous generation 30-cal Berger 'star', the 185gn BT Juggernaut so you now get a much more finicky VLD design to achieve the same ballistic efficiency as one of the most jump tolerant long-range target bullets on the market. Sure, you get a slightly higher BC from the TMK, but that's purely a result of the 10gn weight increase which in combination with a longer bearing surface reduces allowable MVs. My usual SAUM bullets are 185 and older 200gn Hybrids, briefly available and acquired at a modest price discount now that they're 'unfashionable' against the newer 200.20X Berger, and so far it's a 'no-contest' result in favour of the Berger models. If I were writing a school term report on Sierra's recent designs, the summary would say ".... has tried hard, but with mixed results and must do better."
Yet despite that, I'm actually shooting more Sierras today than I have for many years - cost, availability, and they're more than good enough for my needs as I'm shooting more at shorter distances and no longer worried about national league places - and they remain one of my favourite makes. You just have to be a bit selective re the model and then try it out in actual range or match conditions. Our (UK) NRA still contracts out supply of 308 Win match ammunition with the original 308 Sierra 155gn (#2155) bullet for top level GB 'Target Rifle' (sling shooting) use and it performs so well even at 1,000 yards that the NRA sling shooting targets are really far too big for the top-shots in decent wind conditions.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Great read Laurie, learned a few things there I had no idea about. I have had very good luck with 107smk in my 6’s and 168’s in my 30’s and the 142’s weren’t bad but not great in my 6.5’s the only experience at all I have with tmk is factory loads in my 6 creedmoor I bout a few boxes for a hunt I went on as backup ammo, I seated it a little deeper and it shot in the .2’s with factory ammonia a ideal hunting bullet but was only hunting pronghorn and I ended up using my 115 vld’s. Thanks again for the detailed post
Wayne
your missing the point
THEY ARE STILL NOT BR QUALITY BULLETS...better than normal production, but not br
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
I'm not missing the point.
Is F-Class good enough?
3x600 F-Class in California - Barbara Tierney
Guess what bullet. DTAC.
no f class is large target shooting IT IS NOT BR SHOOTING
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Just asking for a friend…… WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS YELLING?…….I’ve shot a little f class but I’m a 1000 yard br guy I understand what your saying and your not wrong but other people are entitled to there opinions. My son competed with 107 smk’s for years with a Savage rifle because I figured he would lose interest at some point and I didn’t want to be 1000’s n 1000’s into it ….. he won several barrels n prizes nothing to write home about but he had a lot of fun and didn’t dq
You probably shoot the most expensive bullets you can buy and are a top contender and if so I’m happy for ya…… to each his own
Wayne
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
While some shooters do both BR and F-Class, those two games don't compete with each other and have much more in common than they do differences with respect to shopping for bullets. However...
Eventually, the number of shots for record, split those two games apart when it forces the issue of the shear amount of ammo required at an F-Class match, especially a multi-day match.
Imagine folks trying to shoot F-Class with custom hand made BR bullets? The number required would force those cottage industry producers to end up looking like Berger or Sierra, and less like small shop bullets.
As for the TMK versus all other question, I side with Laurie. It was good to see Sierra start to innovate after what seemed like a stagnation when compared to Berger. The BC improvement of TMKs matters to some of us just as much as those stalwart MatchKings staying the same. YMMV
Eventually, the number of shots for record, split those two games apart when it forces the issue of the shear amount of ammo required at an F-Class match, especially a multi-day match.
Imagine folks trying to shoot F-Class with custom hand made BR bullets? The number required would force those cottage industry producers to end up looking like Berger or Sierra, and less like small shop bullets.
As for the TMK versus all other question, I side with Laurie. It was good to see Sierra start to innovate after what seemed like a stagnation when compared to Berger. The BC improvement of TMKs matters to some of us just as much as those stalwart MatchKings staying the same. YMMV
clearly another person that does not understand BENCHREST,
they are made for br shooters who wait in line for as much as a year to get them.they are not made for the masses...the masses wont pay for them and could not use the quality
and yes some shooters do make their own.
I'm just trying to pin down your argument. First, it's 'production' and 'built for the masses' and then it's BENCHREST.
It's hard enough trying to figure out your logic let alone trying to read one of your attempts at a full sentence.
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