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Sierra 125 SMK in .300 BLK pressure

MrK, I think it helps to have a borescope and keep an eye on the bore and clean the barrel after you shoot it. It's pretty hard to get all the carbon out if you don't clean it often. Most people shoot the AR platform really hard. I'm surprised more people don't have issues. Just my 2 cents.
 
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MrK, I think it helps to have a borescope and keep an eye on the bore and clean the barrel after you shoot it. It's pretty hard to get all the carbon out if you don't clean it often. Most people shoot the AR platform really hard. I'm surprised more people don't have issues. Just my 2 cents.

Definitely more so with 300blk.. Got to keep an eye on that carbon ring for sure!
 
MrK, I think it helps to have a borescope and keep an eye on the bore and clean the barrel after you shoot it. It's pretty hard to get all the carbon out if you don't clean it often. Most people shoot the AR platform really hard. I'm surprised more people don't have issues. Just my 2 cents.
Thank you for this. Yes I understand gas guns are typically very dirty. I have several and have been reloading for them for 25 years or so. I do regular bore and action cleanings. I scope the bores regularly. This gun was cleaned down to bare metal in the bore and chamber and 15 shots were fired before I fired the group shown in post19. After the deep cleaning I shot 3 shots with some of my standard reloads, then 3 shots of 17.9gn 296 with the SMK then 9 shots of some more standard reloads (17.9gn 296, 125gnSST) without any issues. There is/was no carbon ring per se but there was a carbon buildup in the chamber itself. If you read upthread you saw that I have never had this issue until I started trying load development with the 125 SMK. First I thought it was the brass, then the bullet, then the dirty chamber now I think it's a combination of factors that I cannot nail down. I am confident in my loading technique, post 12 shows my case prep. All charges are hand weighed on a scale that has loaded 1000s of rounds for years without incident sometimes riding the ragged edge but not this time. These should be very mild loads. Maybe this particular barrel just does not like this particular bullet. We should find out this coming week... I have a new barrel coming tomorrow.
 
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Just read the whole thread again and a most basic question was never asked, maybe in another thread, but not here.

What is the base to ogive length touching the lands of a 125 SMK?

The early Noveske “match” chambers were short and caused enough pressure problems that the barrels were exchanged no questions asked.

sorry I missed that
 
Thank you for this. Yes I understand gas guns are typically very dirty. I have several and have been reloading for them for 25 years or so. I do regular bore and action cleanings. I scope the bores regularly. This gun was cleaned down to bare metal in the bore and chamber and 15 shots were fired before I fired the group shown in post19. After the deep cleaning I shot 3 shots with some of my standard reloads, then 3 shots of 17.9gn 296 with the SMK then 9 shots of some more standard reloads (17.9gn 396, 125gnSST) without any issues. There is/was no carbon ring per se but there was a carbon buildup in the chamber itself. If you read upthread you saw that I have never had this issue until I started trying load development with the 125 SMK. First I thought it was the brass, then the bullet, then the dirty chamber now I think it's a combination of factors that I cannot nail down. I am confident in my loading technique, post 12 shows my case prep. All charges are hand weighed on a scale that has loaded 1000s of rounds for years without incident sometimes riding the ragged edge but not this time. These should be very mild loads. Maybe this particular barrel just does not like this particular bullet. We should find out this coming week... I have a new barrel coming tomorrow.
Good luck with your new barrel Hope you find the 125gr. MK bullets as accurate as many other people do with a new chamber.
 
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Just read the whole thread again and a most basic question was never asked, maybe in another thread, but not here.

What is the base to ogive length touching the lands of a 125 SMK?

The early Noveske “match” chambers were short and caused enough pressure problems that the barrels were exchanged no questions asked.

sorry I missed that
Thanks Dellet... Base to ogive of the 125 SMK touching the lands in this rifle is 1.594. I am loading into the cannelure at 1.524. Look at the top of my second picture post 12. Below are some borescope pictures of the chamber: first is at the end of the leade where the lands start. second is end of the chamber, third is chamber itself showing some black spots that seem to be staining from the carbon buildup i cleaned last week. I took the mirror off of the bore scope because it seems to show better this way. With the mirror on its barely visible and does not appear to have any thickness. The barrel/ chamber has not been cleaned before I took the pics.WIN_20241117_09_59_10_Pro.jpgWIN_20241117_10_00_00_Pro.jpgWIN_20241117_10_05_36_Pro.jpg
 
Looking through my notes and comparing numbers with the SAAMI drawing I posted, I’d say the problem is your chamber. I missed your jam length on your load notes. It just didn’t click.

Looking at loaded lengths for 11 different barrels and the 125 SMK, the shortest is 1.680” touch and an COAL of 2.385”. That same barrel with multiple bullets, the touch length is 1.680-1.715”. My rule of thumb is touch at 1.700”.

When Noveske has the problems they recommended loading no longer than 1.5165”. Those barrels had a reputation of blowing primers with factory Hornady loads and some others.

Look at the chamber drawing, the diameter at 1.565” is .309”. With .309” bullets it doesn’t help.

This also probably explains short brass life. For what it’s worth my pet load is 18.5 grains @ 2.255”. 2250 fps n a 16” barrel and expect at least 20 firings.
Hope your new barrel is less frustrating. Check base to ogive length before even mounting it.
 
Looking through my notes and comparing numbers with the SAAMI drawing I posted, I’d say the problem is your chamber. I missed your jam length on your load notes. It just didn’t click.

Looking at loaded lengths for 11 different barrels and the 125 SMK, the shortest is 1.680” touch and an COAL of 2.385”. That same barrel with multiple bullets, the touch length is 1.680-1.715”. My rule of thumb is touch at 1.700”.

When Noveske has the problems they recommended loading no longer than 1.5165”. Those barrels had a reputation of blowing primers with factory Hornady loads and some others.

Look at the chamber drawing, the diameter at 1.565” is .309”. With .309” bullets it doesn’t help.

This also probably explains short brass life. For what it’s worth my pet load is 18.5 grains @ 2.255”. 2250 fps n a 16” barrel and expect at least 20 firings.
Hope your new barrel is less frustrating. Check base to ogive length before even mounting it.
If thats the case I may just put the SMKs up on the shelf. The barrel swap idea was just out of curiosity, I'm not really expecting much out of it as it was on sale at Midway for about 40 bucks. lol. I will work up a load with the SMKs with it just to see but will go back to my original one as I have 300 Sierra Pro Hunters and about100 Nosler BTs loaded for it that run just fine and stay about 3/4 moa. Fun aside about this gun. I was at the "range" working with a different gun. I had just watched a youtube video called "Minute of Angle Challenge" where some dude was going to public ranges and paying people 50 bucks or so if they could put three shots into one moa. On the video no one could except the host (of course). I had my 300 BLK that day as always and realized I had 6 different loads for it in my ammo can. I put up two of those three group targets and shot the six different loads. All six were sub moa. Its been a good gun for me. I purchased the upper right after they came out and have shot a couple thousand rounds through it killing untold numbers of wild hogs and probably 10 deer. Thanks again dellet for all your help.
 
When I ask what reamer cut the chamber... do you have a drawing of the reamer not that it was modified and so you know to what spec it is suppose to be?

I ask because if the reamer cut undersize on the throat diameter that can raise pressure issues. I'll say it's not a Sierra thing.... but I do know the spec bullet for ammo testing per saami can be as big as .3090" diameter. The min spec. chamber is a .3090" diameter throat. I know for a fact on ammunition pressure test barrels when the reamer cut the throat to .3088"/.3089" and the bullets where at .3090" pressure jumped an easy 6k psi.

Whoever spec'd the free bore diameter at .3090" and saying the bullets can be as big as .3090" diameter issues are going to pop up if that would happen and I've seen it.

I seen it several years ago... the spec reference ammo wouldn't chamber all the way. Bullets where fat and the chambers throat was only .0001" to .0002" under the .3090" spec. but factory made ammo with bullets from Sierra, Hornady etc... all chambered with no issues. I don't know offhand how made the ref. ammo/bullets. I still have five lots of it here.

Also did you pull the bullets and reuse them? If so... you could've distorted the bullet jacket and made it bigger etc.... along with a tight free bore or undersize throat diameter.... back to having issues again. A friend reminded me of that being a possible cause as well.

I ask how many rounds on it because that could be issues also...

I won't even get into what the actual bore and groove size of the barrel measures to? You need to know to the .xxxx" place.

Without knowing some of exactly what is what... we can be guessing.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
When I ask what reamer cut the chamber... do you have a drawing of the reamer not that it was modified and so you know to what spec it is suppose to be?

I ask because if the reamer cut undersize on the throat diameter that can raise pressure issues. I'll say it's not a Sierra thing.... but I do know the spec bullet for ammo testing per saami can be as big as .3090" diameter. The min spec. chamber is a .3090" diameter throat. I know for a fact on ammunition pressure test barrels when the reamer cut the throat to .3088"/.3089" and the bullets where at .3090" pressure jumped an easy 6k psi.

Whoever spec'd the free bore diameter at .3090" and saying the bullets can be as big as .3090" diameter issues are going to pop up if that would happen and I've seen it.

I seen it several years ago... the spec reference ammo wouldn't chamber all the way. Bullets where fat and the chambers throat was only .0001" to .0002" under the .3090" spec. but factory made ammo with bullets from Sierra, Hornady etc... all chambered with no issues. I don't know offhand how made the ref. ammo/bullets. I still have five lots of it here.

Also did you pull the bullets and reuse them? If so... you could've distorted the bullet jacket and made it bigger etc.... along with a tight free bore or undersize throat diameter.... back to having issues again. A friend reminded me of that being a possible cause as well.

I ask how many rounds on it because that could be issues also...

I won't even get into what the actual bore and groove size of the barrel measures to? You need to know to the .xxxx" place.

Without knowing some of exactly what is what... we can be guessing.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Not certain if it applies here, but there have been a couple of times over the years that manufactures of shall we say, price conscious barrels, sharpened them a time or two more than they should have. The popularity of cast bullets and sub-sonic shooting caused havoc in those barrels because of the diameters always being oversize.

Bullets jamming int the freebore with lead and sometimes copper rings being shaved off the bullets at the transition at the end of the case neck.

It would seem that if the reamer had been excessively sharpened, that the throat would have a smaller diameter taper and cause the short jam length.

Another question I forgot to ask was if clearance had been checked with a bore scope at the end case neck in the chamber. Brass is at max length, and with a shorter base to shoulder datum, it might be pinching the bullet.

Still lots of possibilities
 
Thanks for all of the responses to this thread. Just to clarify a couple things. This is a CMMG upper, chambered by CMMG or whoever they bought the barrel from. I would estimate 2000 rounds or so. I bought this upper very soon after they came up for sale, I'm guessing 2012 or so. These 125 SMKs were all sized to .308 prior to the last group shot that blew the primer on shot five. This 125 SMK is the only bullet that I have had issues with save the 130 Speers that would occasionally jam. I have shot 95 v-max, 110 Barnes factory loads. 115gn Remington factory loads, four different 125gn (besides the SMK), four 150s and three 180s. All shot fine with no issues. I think dellet is right that the short chamber is probably the issue but I find it weird that the pressure issue seems to come and go. I have had pressure issues with this bullet as low as 17gn 296 but have been able to shoot three shot groups at 17.9gn with no pressure signs.

Thank you dellet for the question about case length in regard to this particular chamber, I am interested in that now as well and will get a picture of that tomorrow and post it.

I don't think that the reamer was ground too small leaving a tight neck as fired brass measures .336 and a loaded SMK round measure .331. I dont have any way to measure the diameter of the freebore or the bore and groove size.

In other news, my 2nd barrel arrived today. The post office lost it for a couple days. I had just enough time to get a good look at it and check base to ogive with the SMK. For a $45 barrel I am pleasantly surprised. The bore looks smooth, feed ramps are well done assuming they line up, crown is good and the gas port is straight.

The base to ogive with the SMK (sized) is 1.804 which is a far cry from my current barrel which measured 1.594 and the SAAMI drawing dellet posted which shows 1.737.

I have a 10 shot ladder loaded up and will mount the new barrel and shoot them early next week then post results for those interested.
 
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Thanks for all of the responses to this thread. Just to clarify a couple things. This is a CMMG upper, chambered by CMMG or whoever they bought the barrel from. I bought this upper very soon after they came up for sale. These 125 SMKs were all sized to .308 prior to the last group shot that blew the primer on shot five. This 125 SMK is the only bullet that I have had issues with save the 130 Speers that would occasionally jam. I have shot 95 v-max, 110 Barnes factory loads. 115gn Remington factory loads, four different 125gn (besides the SMK), four 150s and three 180s. All shot fine with no issues. I think dellet is right that the short chamber is probably the issue but I find it weird that the pressure issue seems to come and go. I have had pressure issues with this bullet as low as 17gn 296 but have been able to shoot three shot groups at 17.9gn with no pressure signs.

Thank you dellet for the question about case length in regard to this particular chamber, I am interested in that now as well and will get a picture of that tomorrow and post it. I don't think that the reamer was ground too small leaving a tight neck as fired brass measures .336 and a loaded SMK round measure .331.

In other news, my 2nd barrel arrived today. The post office lost it for a couple days. I had just enough time to get a good look at it and check base to ogive with the SMK. For a $45 barrel I am pleasantly surprised. The bore looks smooth, feed ramps are well done, crown is good and the gas port is straight. The base to ogive with the SMK (sized) is 1.804 which is a far cry from my current barrel which measured 1.594 and the SAAMI drawing dellet posted which shows 1.737.
I have a 10 shot ladder loaded up and will mount the new barrel and shoot them early next week then post results for those interested.

CMMG was a well known offender 10+ years ago.

You listed three different case lengths that you use. Make sure to check the longest case with the shortest base to shoulder length.

As the base to shoulder measurement gets shorter, the neck gets longer. This puts the case mouth deeper into the chamber. Your brass is on the short side base to datum, long side with a 1.365” trim.

Chamber is on short side with at least one measurement, it wouldn’t take much to start headspacing off the case mouth.

A few other things to keep in mind.
It’s fine with a clean chamber, problem starts after 20-30 shots. Not really enough time for a carbon build up, certainly enough for a copper ring if the bullets are being shaved. You found a ring earlier.

Check case length on the problem brass.

You have always had a pressure problem, it only became more obvious with a new bullet. Loose primer pockets after 4-5 firings of a starting load is a huge red flag.

Pulled bullets are a cull, why did they brake down the loads?
Maybe it was the bullets.

Look forward to seeing the case fit in the chamber.
 
CMMG was a well known offender 10+ years ago.

You listed three different case lengths that you use. Make sure to check the longest case with the shortest base to shoulder length.

As the base to shoulder measurement gets shorter, the neck gets longer. This puts the case mouth deeper into the chamber. Your brass is on the short side base to datum, long side with a 1.365” trim.

Chamber is on short side with at least one measurement, it wouldn’t take much to start headspacing off the case mouth.

A few other things to keep in mind.
It’s fine with a clean chamber, problem starts after 20-30 shots. Not really enough time for a carbon build up, certainly enough for a copper ring if the bullets are being shaved. You found a ring earlier.

Check case length on the problem brass.

You have always had a pressure problem, it only became more obvious with a new bullet. Loose primer pockets after 4-5 firings of a starting load is a huge red flag.

Pulled bullets are a cull, why did they brake down the loads?
Maybe it was the bullets.

Look forward to seeing the case fit in the chamber.
I wouldn't take too much credence in my original post about only 4-5 loads on these cases. I have been lacking at keeping up with the number of times each case has been shot. I know some of the original 200 or so RP cases I started with are getting tired which is one reason I started converting LC and PMC brass. When I get ready to resize these I see if I can push the primer out easily by hand. If so they go into the bin. I get an occasional one I cull this way. When I get ready to load I check primer pockets with a go-no go gauge and occasionally cull a couple this way. I am sure as you said that I probably have higher pressure than normal due to the short chamber.
OK now for the case in chamber pic. I sorted through some spent brass and got the longest one I could find. I screwed my die in for some serious cam over and did not trim. I took a pic with my index finger applying pressure on the case head.

Base to datum @.350: 1.0765
Case over all length: 1.3665

WIN_20241122_14_24_52_Pro.jpg
 
CMMG was a well known offender 10+ years ago.

You listed three different case lengths that you use. Make sure to check the longest case with the shortest base to shoulder length.

As the base to shoulder measurement gets shorter, the neck gets longer. This puts the case mouth deeper into the chamber. Your brass is on the short side base to datum, long side with a 1.365” trim.

Chamber is on short side with at least one measurement, it wouldn’t take much to start headspacing off the case mouth.

A few other things to keep in mind.
It’s fine with a clean chamber, problem starts after 20-30 shots. Not really enough time for a carbon build up, certainly enough for a copper ring if the bullets are being shaved. You found a ring earlier.

Check case length on the problem brass.

You have always had a pressure problem, it only became more obvious with a new bullet. Loose primer pockets after 4-5 firings of a starting load is a huge red flag.

Pulled bullets are a cull, why did they brake down the loads?
Maybe it was the bullets.

Look forward to seeing the case fit in the chamber.
Took a pic of the same case in the new chamber.
WIN_20241122_15_21_49_Pro.jpg
 

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