Shrinking my 600 yard Groups

[Terry]

I have two guns with Savage Dual Port actions, Savage BR Stocks and Pac-Nor barrels. One is a 6.5x47 Lapua, the other is a .22BR. The 6.5 shoots 1/4-1/2" groups at 200 yards. The .22BR shoots .073-.250 groups at 100 yards.
I have the new Sinclair front rest and a large rear bag with heavy sand. The 6.5 has a 10-50 March scope and the .22BR a Nightforce 12-42BR.

The 6.5 shoots 3-5" at 600 yards, and the .22BR shot 4" today.

How do I shrink these groups?

 

[Erik Cortina]

Get closer! ;D

 

[dreever]

Attention to detail in reloading. Everything matters.
Practice, practice,practice!

 

[Terry]

LOL

Thanks!

 

[tbeasley]

Terry
Might need a little more info. Are your groups real tall with little horizontal spread, (oval shaped up and down)? OR are your groups mostly round?
I hope your groups are mostly round (10-shot groups for this)
If you have any other looking group and shot in near calm conditions, then I suspect a bagging issue. Now let's not rule out handloads and consistent neck tension.

Give us more info like;
Barrel twist
Powder and bullets being sent downrange
Tight neck or standard and neck bushing used
Which rear bag??
What stocks are you using

Let us know
-tim

 

[Terry]

Terry
Might need a little more info. Are your groups real tall with little horizontal spread, (oval shaped up and down)? OR are your groups mostly round?
I hope your groups are mostly round (10-shot groups for this)
If you have any other looking group and shot in near calm conditions, then I suspect a bagging issue. Now let's not rule out handloads and consistent neck tension.

Give us more info like;
Barrel twist
Powder and bullets being sent downrange
Tight neck or standard and neck bushing used
Which rear bag??
What stocks are you using

Let us know
-tim

Tim

22BR, 1:7.5 Twist, 28.8 Varget, 80 Nosler Custom Comp, Wolf SRM Primers, .248 Neck, .003 Neck Tension.

6.5X47L, 1:8 twist, 38.4 RL15, 130 Berger VLD, 205m Primers, Std Chamber, .003 Neck tension.

Edgewood Mini-Gator W/ Handle

Savage Benchrest Stocks

Terry

 

[Terry]

Groups are showing 2-3 inches of verticle.

 

[kyreloader]

What are the ES/SD of your handloads?

Large ES/SD could explain your verticle at longer distances.

 

[Terry]

ES>20

SD>10

Terry

 

[queen_stick]

If you have 2-3 inches of vertical, then you're close... it's time to fine tune things. How's the mirage when you're shooting? maybe you're adjusting your point of aim due to conditions.

If you don't believe it's conditions, the try playing with the bullet seating depth if you haven't already. Another thing to try is bump up your powder charge by 0.1gr increments, if it's feasible. Maybe even bring the charge down a bit and see what it does. Maybe lighten the neck tension to .001 or .002.

if nothing seems to bring the vertical down, then I'd agree with tbeasley, that it's a bag/stock issue.

 

[SpencerC]

I'm sure you already do, but make sure you have all the parallax out of your scope as well. The farther back you go, the bigger difference it makes...

 

[Nodak7mm]

Savage Dual Port actions, Savage BR Stocks and Pac-Nor barrels

Upgrade components and take er to the next level..

Erik - ROTFLMAO!!!

Rod

 

[Terry]

Thanks to all.

I'll keep tweaking.
I have a point of aim question.
Any tips on keeping it tight?

 

[lmorrison17]

Nobody mentioned bench technique/gun handling. How well does your gun ride in the bags? When you slide it back up to the forend stop does it come back to the same point of aim? Have you experimented with front rest and rear bag position on the stock? Have you experimented with different holds and recoil management techniques? WHat ever you decide on you must do it exactly the same each time, same shoulder, cheek, thumb or grip pressure.
Larry

 

[Terry]

Nobody mentioned bench technique/gun handling. How well does your gun ride in the bags? When you slide it back up to the forend stop does it come back to the same point of aim? Have you experimented with front rest and rear bag position on the stock? Have you experimented with different holds and recoil management techniques? WHat ever you decide on you must do it exactly the same each time, same shoulder, cheek, thumb or grip pressure.
Larry

Larry

I need to do more work on this.

Just sliding the gun back and fort it returns to position.
In actual firing it is more work. The bolt cycling can cause the gun to move.
I am shooting free recoil.

 

[queen_stick]

Thanks to all.

I'll keep tweaking.
I have a point of aim question.
Any tips on keeping it tight?

Terry, I don't know any pointers for keeping your POA tight except to shoot as quick as you can (practically) before the conditions change.

To see how much of a difference light/mirage makes on your POA, try this test...

Set you gun up in the bags and point it at a 300yard target (any distance works, but do at least 300 if you can). Make sure the gun will not move, and that your cross hair is dead center of the bulls. Now, walk away and go shoot your 22lr for 30 minutes or so. When you come back after 30 minutes, be careful not to touch/move the gun, and see where that cross hair is pointing on the target. I guarantee you it's not in the center of the bulls, and it's likely outside of a 1" bulls at 300 yards.

First time I did that, I waited 15 minutes after setting up my gun, and it was pointing 3/4" low at 300 yards. My gunsmith and I both did it at the same time, and we both had the same result, so it's unlikely that our bags settled or the guns moved while sitting there for 15 minutes.

something to keep in mind when you're shooting for group....

 

[tbeasley]

Queen-stick
There is alot of truth to this, tested and yes same result. However I cam up with a different ideal. Need to verify this but If I set my gun up on wood blocks so to eliminate the bag shifting issue and still get a POA shift, then my thought is that as the sun gets higher or moves, we might see a diffraction in the air. Basically early morning no heat and as sun moves up ( 2 hrs later) the sun is now shining a different beam of light giving us a slightly different shifted image. Just my opinion, but heck usually can't see thru the mirage enough to know what's going on here in Tx. 80% humidity sucks!!

 

[queen_stick]

Queen-stick
There is alot of truth to this, tested and yes same result. However I cam up with a different ideal. Need to verify this but If I set my gun up on wood blocks so to eliminate the bag shifting issue and still get a POA shift, then my thought is that as the sun gets higher or moves, we might see a diffraction in the air. Basically early morning no heat and as sun moves up ( 2 hrs later) the sun is now shining a different beam of light giving us a slightly different shifted image. Just my opinion, but heck usually can't see thru the mirage enough to know what's going on here in Tx. 80% humidity sucks!!

It's almost hard to believe, but it's absolutely true. (good idea with the wood blocks)

I'm not sure if we're seeing a "diffracted picture," due to the change in angle of the light source (the sun)??? The reason behind it is probably well beyond my understanding of multiple topics (optics, magnification, optical illusion, etc...)

I don't know if it has more to do with heat (mirage) or light?

 

[BoydAllen]

From what I read, and have discussed, long range requires attention to details that are not nearly as important at 100. One fellow tells me that he thinks that weighing charges is very important, with an electronic scale that is accurate to .02 grain. The other area that comes to mind is uniformity of neck tension. To improve this area, some 1,000 yard shooters anneal, frequently. The trick is not to over soften necks. Perhaps stress relieving would be a better term. If conditions allow ripping them all off quickly, this should eliminate some change in condition and slow POA shift issues. I would think that not being able to see bullet holes, or use a sighter, while shooting for record, would make picking (waiting for a condition to return) much less precise than it is when shooting at shorter ranges. As well as your rifles shoot at shorter ranges, I don't think that the issue is your current hardware. I would look at reducing your ES. Another area that has shown up more at longer ranges, even 200, is neck clearance. Lately, the trend has been toward more, the theory being that this gives a cleaner bullet release.

 

[lynn]

The range you are shooting on should be the deciding factor on how your groups stack up.If the competitors are all shooting 1 inch groups your technique and reloading need attention.If your fellow competitors are all shooting 6 inches you are doing just fine.
The single biggest improvement you will see is in how you are seating your bullets especially with the vld's.
Lynn