Shoulder not bumping back when resizing

[copperking81]

Ok, so I just started using a set of Sinclair headspace gauges. I've been resizing some once fired .204 Ruger brass and I'm a little surprised to see that no matter how far down I take the resizing die, the shoulder will not bump back. I'm trying to take it back .002. Basically, the brass is staying the same length as in its fire formed state. The only reasons I can come up with are....

1. Since it's once fired brass, it hasn't really expanded that much. Maybe will grow in length after a few more cycles. I suspect this might be the problem because when I take the brass to a complete reloaded round, there aren't any issues chambering.

2. There's something wrong with the resizing die. I've read this can be an issue from time to time with resizing dies...a defect in machining.

Its a Redding die and before I consider replacing it, I'm interested in hearing opinions from more experienced reloaders. I guess if scenario #1 is possible, there's nothing wrong with the die and no need to replace it.

Thoughts?

 

[4xforfun]

Or..maybe the brass hasn't "grown in" to your die yet. Simply take .020 off of shell holder or the bottom of the die so you can put more of the brass into the die.

Question, is there contact with the shoulder of your brass and the chamber when you chamber your fired brass? Strip your bolt and see how it feels when chambered. You may very well not need to bump your shoulders back yet.

Tod

 

[timeout]

Ok, so I just started using a set of Sinclair headspace gauges. I've been resizing some once fired .204 Ruger brass and I'm a little surprised to see that no matter how far down I take the resizing die, the shoulder will not bump back. I'm trying to take it back .002. Basically, the brass is staying the same length as in its fire formed state. The only reasons I can come up with are....

1. Since it's once fired brass, it hasn't really expanded that much. Maybe will grow in length after a few more cycles. I suspect this might be the problem because when I take the brass to a complete reloaded round, there aren't any issues chambering.

2. There's something wrong with the resizing die. I've read this can be an issue from time to time with resizing dies...a defect in machining.

Its a Redding die and before I consider replacing it, I'm interested in hearing opinions from more experienced reloaders. I guess if scenario #1 is possible, there's nothing wrong with the die and no need to replace it.

Thoughts?

You should remove the firing pin and try closing the bolt on your fired brass. If there is no resistance felt, I would not be concerned with bumping the shoulder further back. That being said, I have had a Redding die in 22-250 cal. that was incapable of bumping the shoulder back. Rather than mess with sending the die back, I removed material from the top of my shell holder until the die screwed down far enough to achieve a .002" shoulder bump.

 

[Brians356]

I removed material from the top of my shell holder until the die screwed down far enough to achieve a .002" shoulder bump.

That makes sense, but it occurs to me you then have a shell holder which can probably never be used with any other die. So I suppose removing material from the deficient die makes more sense.

OTOH, if you screw up shaving a shell holder, you're only out about $10.

To the OP, it seems odd to me the shoulders are not moving at all when fired (compared to virgin.) I am not familiar with the Sinclair gages, only with the Hornady Headspace gage method.
-

 

[copperking81]

Good info guys. I have a Forester Co-Ax press so I can't try a different shell holder. It has a universal shell holder. But I have taken the die down as far as possible with no discernible difference in results.

Question. How does testing chambering after stripping the bolt / removing the firing pin differ from testing it without doing that? I'm not sure I understand what that does....

 

[copperking81]

That makes sense, but it occurs to me you then have a shell holder which can probably never be used with any other die. So I suppose removing material from the deficient die makes more sense.

OTOH, if you screw up shaving a shell holder, you're only out about $10.

To the OP, it seems odd to me the shoulders are not moving at all when fired (compared to virgin.) I am not familiar with the Sinclair gages, only with the Hornady Headspace gage method.
-

Well, I haven't tried them on brand new unfired brass. All the brass I have has been fired at least once so when I started using them I made the assumption that the brass had grown and I could bump them back.

But I'm not sure if they actually did grow. I just assumed that if the brass had been fired it would have grown...but maybe not. I guess the next step is to cycle a few through (fire - record size - reload, fire - record size- reload, etc) and see if they even actually grow. If not, I guess that's why the resizing die isn't bumping them back??

The gauges appear to be of high quality and they are consistent.

 

[Brians356]

Question. How does testing chambering after stripping the bolt / removing the firing pin differ from testing it without doing that? I'm not sure I understand what that does....

Watch this video! All will be revealed. With the firing pin spring and ejector still installed, the bolt cannot provide subtle resistance feedback when closing on the case.

-

 

[Lapua40X]

Here's all you need .....

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/52...set-1-308-winchester-30-06-springfield-45-acp

 

[/VH]

Here's all you need .....

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/52...set-1-308-winchester-30-06-springfield-45-acp

No sir, that ain't right.

1. He's using a co-ax press, so he would also need an adapter/conversion kit, which I think is manufactured currently but I don't know that for sure.

2. He's loading .204 Ruger, 308/06 shellholders won't fit.

3. Those shellholders do not allow a case to enter a die deeper than a standard shellholder. They are designed to prevent the case from entering as deep as a standard shellholder allows, in .002" increments.

Respectfully submitted; as I am aware that several folks on this forum are confused about the function of these shellholders which I think is at least, in part, caused by Redding's description of the item in their advertising.

 

[BoydAllen]

One firing does not generally make brass tight in the head to shoulder direction. In fact, if I do not have the opportunity to produce a case that is its maximum in that direction, by firing it several times, neck sized, with stout loads, I find that I have great success simply FL sizing to produce the same dimension as once fired brass (fired brass measured with primer removed or reseated well below flush). Why are you trying to bump once fired brass .002 in the first place? I routinely bump half that much from what a tight case measures and as long as I consistent results, my brass chambers just right. In the short range benchrest game problems such as yours are generally addressed by taking a little off of the top of the shell holder, but I would not go there unless you have a tight bolt after sizing and you track that down to lack of shoulder bump.

 

[skiutah02]

Its embarrassing to admit this, but any chance you are using a Redding NECK sizing die? I bought a Redding 6.5-284 die and was trying to bump shoulders back and couldn't then realized that I accidentally bought a neck sizing die (type S) rather than a FL sizing die...just say'n. Drew

 

[Brians356]

1. Since it's once fired brass, it hasn't really expanded that much.

Do you have the Sinclair Bump Gage insert and comparator body, and any caliper measurements therefrom? You haven't indicated you measured a virgin case dimension at the shoulder datum. Unless you did, you can't know how much it lengthened after one firing. It probably lengthened considerably, but still might be short enough to not to take a shoulder setback from you die (which may have nothing wrong with it.)

 

[timeout]

It probably lengthened considerably, but still might be short enough to not to take a shoulder setback from you die (which may have nothing wrong with it.)

Exactly my point of removing the firing pin and closing the bolt down on a fired case. There is likely not a problem with the cartridge case.

 

[tenring]

Rather than grind down the shell holder, invest in a set of Redding competition shell holders, There are 5 in a pack, one of these will bump em back just enuf.

 

['Freak]

Measure the case head to shoulder datum length of a fired case that you haven’t tried to resize. Back the FL size die out the press an eighth turn (~.009”) from your previous adjustment, resize the case, and again measure its head to shoulder datum length.

It’s quite possible that the case afterwards will be a bit longer than it was before since with the die backed out an 1/8th turn it’ll leave that much room for the shoulder end of the case to “squirt” forward whilst the die is squeezing in on the side of the case body.

I’ve used this method to intentionally “grow” the length of once fired brass when trying to determine what case length is necessary for the case to just barely fill the length of the chamber from bolt face to the chamber’s shoulder.

 

[LHSmith]

Rather than grind down the shell holder, invest in a set of Redding competition shell holders, There are 5 in a pack, one of these will bump em back just enuf.

See post 9 above.

 

[Comrade Terry]

I have a Forester Co-Ax press

Forster makes a shoulder bump die. You may need one of those.

My Redding Type-S full length die in a Forster Coax wouldn't bump the shoulder (.308). The Forster bump die solved the problem nicely.

 

['Freak]

One firing is more likely not going to blow the 30° shoulder of a new .204 Ruger case forward with force enough so that after the chamber has returned to at rest dimensions and after the case springs back a bit more, it’s probably not going to leave the case filling the full extents of the chamber’s length.

His present Redding Full Length size die turned in to contact the standard shellholder, or possibly even backed out a tad, could prove to be perfect for resizing/shoulder bumping .204 Ruger cases to fit the bolt face to shoulder length of his chamber, and leave at least some up to .002” headspace. He’ll not know for sure until after he has brass that has been fully formed to the extents of his chamber’s length.

 

[243winxb]

This -1. Since it's once fired brass, it hasn't really expanded that much. Maybe will grow in length after a few more cycles. I suspect this might be the problem because when I take the brass to a complete reloaded round, there aren't any issues chambering.

 

[Webster]

Good info guys. I have a Forester Co-Ax press so I can't try a different shell holder. It has a universal shell holder. But I have taken the die down as far as possible with no discernible difference in results.

Question. How does testing chambering after stripping the bolt / removing the firing pin differ from testing it without doing that? I'm not sure I understand what that does....

Removing the firing pin and spring allows you to feel the bolt resistance to pushing the case shoulder against the chamber shoulder. With the firing pin in the bolt the effort to compress the spring masks the effort to push the case shoulder into the chamber shoulder. With the firing pin assembly removed if you don't feel resistance to closing the bolt the shoulder doesn't need to be bumped back IMO. In other words no resistance to closing the bolt you have clearance. Sounds to me that you don't have a problem. Sometimes I think that people that have to have a lot of tools, gauges and measuring devices make up problems. I have fired at least 20 thou rounds without measuring shoulder push back?

Buy Tony Boyers book from MidWay USA, they have low shipping charges. Tony has 3 times as many Hall of Fame points as his nearest competitor. I use his method to adjust dies.

A short explanation:
1. remove the firing pin assembly.
2. Adjust your die so it touches the shell holder.
3. Back the die out maybe a half turn.
4. Get a feel for the effort to close the bolt on an empty chamber.
4. Put fired unprimed unloaded case into the rifle and close the bolt. If there is resistance to closing the bolt turn the die down a tiny amount and check resistance to closing. If there is no resistance you have clearance.
5. Keep turning the die down in small steps until you feel a very slight resistance to closing the bolt. Check the same case several times to check for spring back. You want a very small resistance to closing the bolt.

Buy Tony's book to get the proper explanation.