Should I use Templiaq to set annealing machine?

[zanemoseley]

I've seen where some people use the 750 degree Templiaq paint on the inside of the necks to set their machine time where others go by the flame color.

I've looked at this annealing guide

where he recommends finding the time where the flame changes color then bumping it down a bit so it doesn't change color and burn material out.

So I don't mind spending $25 on the paint if you guys recommend it but if you guys find it better to set it by the guide above then I'll just skip the paint.

 

[fguffey]

It is a like unto mowing the lawn for neighborhood acceptance. To be politically correct on a reloading forum the reloader must use use template.


And then, there is the addiction, some reloaders never learn from experience and are required to start over everyday

F. Guffey

 

[itchyTF]

I think Tempilaq is more objective and reliable than flame color. I'd say use it.

 

[Comrade Terry]

I think Tempilaq is more objective and reliable than flame color. I'd say use it.

+1

 

[jlow]

The 750 Tempilaq is basically useless. If you paint it on the outside, it will be burned by the flame which is much hotter than the brass, so you are not measuring brass temp. If you paint it on the inside, I have never been able to see it since the flame on the outside is bright but the inside of the neck is dark. Some people use a flashlight to look inside but again, with the neck turning all the time (with a BenchSource), how are you going to see the Tempilaq melt? The 400 degree Tempilaq is useful to check to see if too much heat has migrated down the case but honestly if you anneal the neck and shoulder with the proper amount of heat, the case head in my hands has never remotely reach 400 degrees.

Most people use the dark room and adjust annealing time until it starts turning slightly red. At that point, conventional wisdom says to back of ¼ of a second and you will be at the right temperature. The video is basically doing that except you are not going to see that slight red or no red in room lighting conditions which they need to make the video. Again, turn all the lights off and play with it – it’s not hard or rocket science.

Looking at the dark annealing mark outside the case is totally useless because how a case looks after annealing depends on the temperature it hits but also very much dependent on what type of contaminant (lube, soap, water hardness, etc) there is on the outside of the case and that can vary quite a bit.

 

[itchyTF]

The OP said on the inside of the neck.

Most people use the dark room and adjust annealing time until it starts turning slightly red. At that point, conventional wisdom says to back of ¼ of a second and you will be at the right temperature. The video is basically doing that except you are not going to see that slight red or no red in room lighting conditions which they need to make the video. Again, turn all the lights off and play with it – it’s not hard or rocket science.

Some will disagree with this method, but to each his own. Whatever works for you - in the reloading room and on target.

 

[jlow]

The OP said on the inside of the neck.



Some will disagree with this method, but to each his own. Whatever works for you - in the reloading room and on target.

Its the method recommended by the guy who build the BenchSource. Got it straight from the horses mouth when I called the company when I first brought the BenchSource a few years ago. I don't assume I know any better, thus the suggestion.

 

[Mozella]

Short answer: Yes.
Long Answer: Yes, put it inside the neck and buy a flashlight.
Extra tip: Don't believe everything you read on the Internet............. except what I say, of course.

 

[zx10mike]

i find bright day light better for seeing colour.i also find that if you sonic clean the colour comes much faster .carbon/soot acts as a heat barrier as does tumbler media residue.

 

[XBBR Shooter]

I've seen where some people use the 750 degree Templiaq paint on the inside of the necks to set their machine time where others go by the flame color.

I've looked at this annealing guide where he recommends finding the time where the flame changes color then bumping it down a bit so it doesn't change color and burn material out.

So I don't mind spending $25 on the paint if you guys recommend it but if you guys find it better to set it by the guide above then I'll just skip the paint.

I do a lot of annealing - maybe 3,000 to 7,000 a year, and I haven ever ruined a single case

The premise in the video about changing color of the flame is false. The color of all flames is due to chemicals in the flame - sodium is bright lemon yellow, potassium is lavender, etc.

Carbon is a dark-ish yellow/orange.

The color he is showing is due to carbon... oil (even from fingerprints), protective wax (all new cases have it) or metal polish on the case - if you wash the cases in dish detergent, and rinse them completely, you cannot get that color, even if you melt the case.

Both zinc and copper give of a deep blue green color if they are hot enough to be in trouble - which takes temperatures way above melting... so, in reality, you can not use flame color to judge ANYTHING.

As said by jlow, in a darkish room, use a dark red glow and hold it for 3 or 4 seconds, and you are fine.

Heat the neck with the tip of the flame...

You cannot judge the amount of anneal by the color of the shoulder/body.

These are 6 Remington cases, two lots, purchased in different years. All were annealed at the same time, under the same conditions (time-temp).

 

[dcali]

The most important thing is to make sure the case head doesn't get too hot. Tempilaq is good for that while setting things up, although you want lower temperature and to put it below the shoulder. A soft case head is not strong enough to contain 60,000 psi. Hard brass has a yield strength of roughly 85 ksi (or more). Soft brass can be under 20. You do not want the case head getting soft.

There is a lot of uncertainty as to how hot the cases are actually getting and how hot (and for how long) they need to get. Consistency seems to be more important than the actual numbers, especially if you're on the quick/low temp side of things, which may not be fully annealing. A longer hotter anneal should be more consistent, but there are people who are paranoid about "over annealing" (making the brass softer than they want, although there is reason to think this isn't a real issue - I've never tested though. It's on my list to do this carefully.). I'm starting to think some people aren't actually doing anything, and are just heating up the brass without effect. Others are annealing very thoroughly and getting very soft necks. You really do just need to test and see what works.

And even though I wrote an article that says 750 F is enough on my website (which needs updating), additional research in trying to nail those numbers down more accurately has led me to believe that more temperature is necessary - maybe as much as 1000 F to fully anneal in a few seconds. Unfortunately, it's just not easy to get actual data - measuring temperature is problematic and engineering literature uses larger pieces of brass and typically is concerned with annealing on much longer time frames - minutes to hours.

There is also a complication in that people think in terms of hardness instead of yield strength. Yield strength is what we care about, but hardness is what is much easier to measure. The trouble is that while hardness is a reasonable measure of yield strength (they are linked, physically speaking), it doesn't track exactly. You see significant decreases in hardness that do not result in a meaningful reduction of yield strength. So we get tricked into thinking that we're annealing more than we are. In general, when you see a decrease in yield strength (what we want), it happens very quickly (either when looking at it from a time or temperature perspective.

And brass color means absolutely nothing. You start to see pretty colors in the oven set at 230 F. Time at temperature is what matters.

Finally, one note on "over annealing". There is basically a floor to annealing. You can heat the crap out of a case and it won't really get any softer than that. Conventional wisdom says that this is too soft. I'm not so sure. There is an old precision shooting magazine that has some data on new case hardness, and one of the brands they tested (Remington? I can't recall) had necks that were fully annealed - as soft as it's going to get - right from the factory. That, according to many, is "ruined".

I think a lot of disagreement on annealing comes from disagreements on what the goals are and uncertainty as to how hot we are actually getting the brass. We really just don't know, so results can and do vary.

All that said, I almost never anneal. It's just not necessary in my experience. I get good enough neck tension/velocity variation without it, and with a properly sized chamber, split necks don't happen. Then again, I don't shoot 1,000 yard benchrest (which is where I see most of the claims of necessity originate). But brenchrest shooters, as we all know, are half crazy to begin with, and can't be trusted.

Edit: one more thing - the flame color is not something I would pay attention to. It is due to various elements being present on or around the case, not a direct result of anything to do with annealing. It *might* *coincidentally* mark a useful temperature, but I wouldn't count on that being consistent for a lot of reasons. Time and Temperature, not light shows.

 

[Comrade Terry]

But brenchrest shooters, as we all know, are half crazy to begin with, and can't be trusted.

I resemble that remark!

 

[gotcha]

Here's another reason not to believe everything you see on the internet. Google: /x-ray-spectrometry-of-cartridge-brass/ Differences in alloy have an effect on coloration and required heat dwell time Trust 750* F. Tempilac. According to Tempilac techs the ONLY indicator capable of accurate readings on the outer surface of cartridge brass is the 750* variety. (no need to peer into necks) P.S. 750* is only guaranteed accurate for 90 days after date of Mfg. ............ Call Tempilac with your lot# and they will verify the date of manufacture.

 

[XBBR Shooter]

damoncali said:

"... And even though I wrote an article that says 750 F is enough on my website (which needs updating), additional research in trying to nail those numbers down more accurately has led me to believe that more temperature is necessary - maybe as much as 1000 F to fully anneal in a few seconds. Unfortunately, it's just not easy to get actual data - measuring temperature is problematic and engineering literature uses larger pieces of brass and typically is concerned with annealing on much longer time frames - minutes to hours."

"...Finally, one note on "over annealing". There is basically a floor to annealing. You can heat the crap out of a case and it won't really get any softer than that. Conventional wisdom says that this is too soft. I'm not so sure. There is an old precision shooting magazine that has some data on new case hardness, and one of the brands they tested (Remington? I can't recall) had necks that were fully annealed - as soft as it's going to get - right from the factory. That, according to many, is "ruined"."

======================================================

Note in the engineering diagram below, that 750° the WORST temperature to strive for. 750° puts you in the steepest part of the slope, i.e.,for a given temperature spread, you get the most irregularity of annealing.

You can see, that at 975°, you reach the annealing "plateau" (you called it a "floor"), and at that temperature (and higher), errors in time and/or temperature result in un-measurable differences in case neck hardness/softness.

As to a case neck being "too soft".... there are no standards for neck hardness - hell, there are no standards for case HEAD hardness... so you anneal, and then adjust your bushing for the amount of neck grab you want, just like we do anyway.

 

[Shaggy357]

Most people use the dark room and adjust annealing time until it starts turning slightly red.

+1

Tempilac will work well if you are setting up a machine for a specific lot of brass, on a specific day. As mentioned above, there is also a shelf life to Tempilac. If I was borrowing a buddies machine and had a three day weekend (haha) and all of my brass ready to go, I might be able to get good use of some Tempilac. Without the machine, just brass, torch, and I, the darkened room and "start to glow" method has worked. Made me a little pedestal for the trimmate and it works good. Maybe 20 minutes to do 100 brass with my little butane torch. I do the water quench to mitigate chance of fire.

If you get one of the machines that will do several thousand brass in an hour, let me know. I will buy the Tempilac and we can share!

Steve

 

[BoydAllen]

In the past, we have used 500 degree Tempilaq, applied as a narrow stripe from the point of the shoulder down to the head of the case. The same case can be used over and over for calibration, after cooling and scrubbing off the residue, for checking time at the beginning of a session. We did this because of the possibility of differences in the flame setting. The machine was a two torch rotary annealer that paused the case in the flames. Our goal was to have more uniform shoulder bump while retaining sufficient neck tension for magazine use while hunting. The torches were aimed at the middle of the case necks. We worked with 7mmWSM brass that was lightly turned to just clean up the necks, and .338 Lapua that was not turned. If the necks had been thinner, we probably would have aimed the torches slightly lower. When the Tempilaq was burned to the same level of Lapua annealing color, the time was about right, for our purposes. In the past I had tried the pan of water slight glow in the dark method and my necks were too soft. Accuracy suffered. Ken Light has written that if necks glow in any light that IHO they have been over heated. Opinions vary on this. http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

 

[jlow]

damoncali said:

"... And even though I wrote an article that says 750 F is enough on my website (which needs updating), additional research in trying to nail those numbers down more accurately has led me to believe that more temperature is necessary - maybe as much as 1000 F to fully anneal in a few seconds. Unfortunately, it's just not easy to get actual data - measuring temperature is problematic and engineering literature uses larger pieces of brass and typically is concerned with annealing on much longer time frames - minutes to hours."

"...Finally, one note on "over annealing". There is basically a floor to annealing. You can heat the crap out of a case and it won't really get any softer than that. Conventional wisdom says that this is too soft. I'm not so sure. There is an old precision shooting magazine that has some data on new case hardness, and one of the brands they tested (Remington? I can't recall) had necks that were fully annealed - as soft as it's going to get - right from the factory. That, according to many, is "ruined"."

======================================================

Note in the engineering diagram below, that 750° the WORST temperature to strive for. 750° puts you in the steepest part of the slope, i.e.,for a given temperature spread, you get the most irregularity of annealing.

You can see, that at 975°, you reach the annealing "plateau" (you called it a "floor"), and at that temperature (and higher), errors in time and/or temperature result in un-measurable differences in case neck hardness/softness.

As to a case neck being "too soft".... there are no standards for neck hardness - hell, there are no standards for case HEAD hardness... so you anneal, and then adjust your bushing for the amount of neck grab you want, just like we do anyway.

Yes and No….

There is a lot of truth in saying that 750 degree is not a good temperature to try to hit in annealing. It is in fact sitting on the steepest part of the annealing curve which means it is very easy to over and under anneal. However, this is only looking from the standpoint of precision annealing and is precisely the reason why you don’t try to hit it using a socket and drill method but it needs to be done by a machine.

As to necks being too soft, this is indeed bad if you need the neck to hold on to the bullet in the magazine of a rifle with high recoil. This is not a standard but a MUST have in that situation. If you are shooting a rifle that is being single loaded, hell people intentionally have almost no tension so they can seat the bullet to consistent distance i.e. touching the lands by using the lands to push the bullets in. But for mag loaded rounds, you better believe neck tension is absolutely critical.

 

[dcali]

damoncali said:

"... And even though I wrote an article that says 750 F is enough on my website (which needs updating), additional research in trying to nail those numbers down more accurately has led me to believe that more temperature is necessary - maybe as much as 1000 F to fully anneal in a few seconds. Unfortunately, it's just not easy to get actual data - measuring temperature is problematic and engineering literature uses larger pieces of brass and typically is concerned with annealing on much longer time frames - minutes to hours."

"...Finally, one note on "over annealing". There is basically a floor to annealing. You can heat the crap out of a case and it won't really get any softer than that. Conventional wisdom says that this is too soft. I'm not so sure. There is an old precision shooting magazine that has some data on new case hardness, and one of the brands they tested (Remington? I can't recall) had necks that were fully annealed - as soft as it's going to get - right from the factory. That, according to many, is "ruined"."

======================================================

Note in the engineering diagram below, that 750° the WORST temperature to strive for. 750° puts you in the steepest part of the slope, i.e.,for a given temperature spread, you get the most irregularity of annealing.

You can see, that at 975°, you reach the annealing "plateau" (you called it a "floor"), and at that temperature (and higher), errors in time and/or temperature result in un-measurable differences in case neck hardness/softness.

As to a case neck being "too soft".... there are no standards for neck hardness - hell, there are no standards for case HEAD hardness... so you anneal, and then adjust your bushing for the amount of neck grab you want, just like we do anyway.

I think you'll find that data specifically on cartridge brass tends to have a sharper decline. The temperature that it occurs at varies with the time of the annealing. What complicates things is that there is also a very notable drop in strength if you look at a constant-temperature time plot. So both time AND temperature are important. Usually, data is presented as 1 hour annealing time, but there are a few papers that look at it at shorter intervals. Unfortunately, none I have found give anything detailed on the time scales that we are interested in (a few seconds), as it's pretty difficult to actually measure.

We can't just heat brass to a constant temperature and hold it there for 3 seconds. It heats up at whatever rate (depending on how much flame), annealing all the while, and stays hot for as long as it does, continuing to anneal. So we have a variable temperature over a short period of time, making it really hard without doing some lab-grade testing exactly what is going on.

So what' it mean to me? I think it's really tough to "partially anneal" consistently. One of these days i'm going to figure out a way to test this in a useful manner. Some sort of carefully measured "pliers test" (measure the force required to crush the neck) might actually shed some light on this. But it's tough to keep things consistent enough so that you know what your'e testing.

 

[fguffey]

Another annealing thread with “it can not be done” hovering over the thread. One day I decided to anneal a few cases, I decided there had to be rules; after that I build case annealing equipment based on the rules. Had I waited for the Internet ‘it could not be done’.


F. Guffey

 

[XBBR Shooter]

I think you'll find that data specifically on cartridge brass tends to have a sharper decline. The temperature that it occurs at varies with the time of the annealing. What complicates things is that there is also a very notable drop in strength if you look at a constant-temperature time plot. So both time AND temperature are important. Usually, data is presented as 1 hour annealing time, but there are a few papers that look at it at shorter intervals. Unfortunately, none I have found give anything detailed on the time scales that we are interested in (a few seconds), as it's pretty difficult to actually measure.

We can't just heat brass to a constant temperature and hold it there for 3 seconds. It heats up at whatever rate (depending on how much flame), annealing all the while, and stays hot for as long as it does, continuing to anneal. So we have a variable temperature over a short period of time, making it really hard without doing some lab-grade testing exactly what is going on.

So what' it mean to me? I think it's really tough to "partially anneal" consistently. One of these days i'm going to figure out a way to test this in a useful manner. Some sort of carefully measured "pliers test" (measure the force required to crush the neck) might actually shed some light on this. But it's tough to keep things consistent enough so that you know what you're testing.

Annealing is really not that hard - I have been annealing cases since the mid '70s... they come out the same, I have never ruined a case, and I have never had a neck be "too soft". The bench calibres shoot very uniformly, and cases last forever.

~ Three years ago, I threw out about 340-ish pieces of Winchester 22-250 cases that were what was left of 400 cases bought in 1975. I lost about 60 in the grass. The cases had been through 5 barrels while whackin' PDs and woodchucks - the cases were fired about 45 times each - annealed about every 5 to 7 shots, and were in good shape when I tossed them.

I often think people "over think" things that are basically very s-i-m-p-l-e. Annealing ain't rocket science.