Agree I held out as long as I could waiting for something at a price point I thought was acceptable to me and Adam came through for me. I came really close to spending the $3000 for the other system and I am glad I could tell myself no. I can now go to the range by myself or with my son or a friend and work on things as far as what I am seeing and why I took the shot and explain stuff and also learn myself.
ShotMarker Rapid Fire sensors
- Thread starter adamjmac
- Start date
Agree I held out as long as I could waiting for something at a price point I thought was acceptable to me and Adam came through for me. I came really close to spending the $3000 for the other system and I am glad I could tell myself no. I can now go to the range by myself or with my son or a friend and work on things as far as what I am seeing and why I took the shot and explain stuff and also learn myself.
If every product were perfect upon release very little would ever be released and what was released would never have a follow-on. Do you drive a car? They almost all have annual updates, sometimes more often for recalls and software updates (sometimes performed without your knowledge at the dealership). It's entirely reasonable for a company to release a product before it's perfect, since literally every company does so.
Adam has struck an excellent balance with a highly modular system which allows for hardware updates, and complete software which can be updated for new features which didn't exist at release - including features (or targets) which have been requested by customers. The manufacturer not knowing every possible use for a product doesn't make the product inferior, but the response to customer requests does make them a good company to do business with. Having seen Adam's willingness to work with his customers to find improvements and new features to add makes me very confident in using his products, in me and my club buying them, and in recommending them to others.
I think you make my point for me. A free software update is expected to fix defects and add missing functionality - not a wonderous deal, so don’t claim it is. You wouldn’t be in business long without it. It’s like a Motel claiming free cable TV. My truck has had 4 “free software updates” in the past year and a half, courtesy of the magnamous GM. Do I think this is generous on the part of GM, where I have to drop my truck off for a half day and find something else to drive?
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Add "missing" or expand functionality? I wouldn't consider, for example, adding additional targets at the request of users (for free) to be adding "missing functionality".
I've ordered mine. Can't wait to see how many rounds I get through it before the prevaricators finally get off the fence.
I've ordered mine. Can't wait to see how many rounds I get through it before the prevaricators finally get off the fence.
No software is bug free... but that's the not the point. The point is when will the Shotmarker be ready for prime time? In my opinion...it already is. Others may disagree and that's the fine, but eventually they will jump in the pool in and find that the water is fine or they will sit on the side of the pool watching all the other kids have fun. E-Targets are coming on strong, and you can fight them or embrace them. Personally, I would rather BS with my friends behind the firing line than pull targets. Yes, I know that the E-Target scores might not be 100.0000% accurate, but then I know I've made mistakes when pulling targets too.
So, has there ever been a perfect product marketed that was never, nor could ever be improved upon?
Lockheed Constellation enters the market for commercial air travel and revolutionizes the industry. I choose to still drive from New York to L.A. because it is 'not ready for prime time and still needs improvement' while my friends are enjoying the freeing of their time saved by air travel. Me...I'm waiting on Whittle to develop the turbine engine!.... NOT!
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Excellent analogy.
Let's be objective. You have 2 major different points. "fix or add". In a precision sport that awards positional recognition for accuracy, adding functionality carries no historic consequences.
So the analogy of car updates is not valid if accidents caused loss of life.
Therefore, "fix" on the other hand carries with it the obvious question: What are the previous records really worth? Is CLOSE good enough. Obviously is for some.
Hi Rick,
Happy New Year.
I was probably not alone wondering when you would continue your trend and chime into this thread on your competition in the E target marketplace.
Hats off to Adam for a great product at a great Price.
I have not heard even one of his many, many many new customers that have brought his product complain about one thing including his service.
His only detractors that I have seen are the non believers in E targets and his competition.
FACT
I am one of the many that invested in Adam / Shotmarker but I hope your HEX System and your other competitor, Silver Mountain also continue to do well. Competition is good for all, drives down the prices and improves the products we have to choose to spend our $$$ with.
George
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Some good points....Does anyone think that SMT would have bought out there considerably cheaper SOLO if Adam hadn’t of bought his unit out first? Personally I doubt it..Competition is a very good thing,MANY thanks to Adam.Hi Rick,
Happy New Year.
I was probably not alone wondering when you would continue your trend and chime into this thread on your competition in the E target marketplace.
Hats off to Adam for a great product at a great Price.
I have not heard even one of his many, many many new customers that have brought his product complain about one thing including his service.
His only detractors that I have seen are the non believers in E targets and his competition.
FACT
I am one of the many that invested in Adam / Shotmarker but I hope your HEX System and your other competitor, Silver Mountain also continue to do well. Competition is good for all, drives down the prices and improves the products we have to choose to spend our $$$ with.
George
Excellent discussion. I haven't been following so I'm just catching up and I thought it would be helpful to provide some background so you don't have to speculate quite so much.
The one thought I keep coming back to as I read is the idea that a product is perceived as a fixed thing. As if I "release" something and then you "buy" and then that's what it is. If you wait, you will get "the next version" and that will be better, at the cost of not having the product earlier. In reality, at least for me and the way I operate, that's not how it works.
My goal is to give you the best thing I can as fast as I can. I have ideas and I implement them as quickly as possible. There is money in selling products today but in the long term selling better products and having happy customers is more important.
When I started with the AutoTrickler the idea was to make something I needed that didn't exist. I had no idea if people wanted it. I just built one and this forum showed me there was a real market there. So I made more of them. Everyone was happy. I didn't put any thought into how and when I would release a new version, at first. I was just trying to figure out how to build them faster.
Then I realized the RCBS trickler it was modded from was a crutch. No one was complaining, it wasn't a "problem" really, there are still V1 AutoTricklers being used today, but there was definitely room for improvement. So I found a machinist and we designed a custom aluminum trickler. I found these great bronze bushings that last forever and don't need to be lubricated. I released that as a $65 upgrade which is break even for me. At the volume I sell at, $65 is not much for anything that has to be designed, manufactured, assembled, tested, cleaned, packed in a box with instructions, and shipped, no matter how small. I just wanted everyone to upgrade, and hoped it would make tech support easier down the road.
To me, I think of my customers like we're all on a team. I want you to have the full experience from whatever cool thing I come up with. You pay not for the product, but for the capability it offers. You provide feedback, I make improvements. If it stops working, I fix it. This is not supposed to be adversarial. I feel an obligation to provide value, and I appreciate patience and constructive feedback that results in improvements which help more people.
It's fair to pay the incremental value of any upgrade. You shouldn't have to pay to fix obvious problems, and you shouldn't have to pay full price all over again for a new version because that's not fair value. I really, really try to provide painless upgrade paths for the people that need it. In the past, I have always charged the break even price for improvements. The new o-rings for the trickler are free. The 8mm upgrade for the AutoThrow was $15. These new sensors are $20 if you ship me your old ones because that's what it costs me to replace the boards. Even the regular price of a sensor is $40 because I don't feel like I should be profiting when you shoot a sensor by accident, and replacing sensors doesn't provide any more value to you. You have to pay for the product in the first place, but you shouldn't have to pay twice for the same thing. If it's warranty, I pay shipping. If it's added value, you pay shipping, but often the new parts are free. I might even buy back your old parts if I think I can sell them to someone else who has been asking for a discount.
Funny story. I recently bought a Sensor Hub from someone which had TWO bullet holes in it, fixed the antenna, and sold to someone else who didn't mind the bullet holes. I don't make any money from that but it was an opportunity to put a functioning e-target in someone's hands.
Sometimes the minority has an issue that most people wouldn't experience. Maybe they are doing something slightly outside of the original design intent, or maybe it's a limitation that I didn't realize but only for a specific use case. This is where it gets tricky. To the ones that need the fix, it feels like a warranty issue because that value was expected, although not explicitly stated. However if I offer the upgrade for free to everyone then the majority, who don't even need it, will jump on the free upgrade. So I have to at least cover my costs and it becomes a minimal cost upgrade. Sometimes there's a balance between considering an issue warranty repair for free vs. an upgrade which should be at cost.
This is why I design modular products that can be changed and upgraded easily. 3D printing, building everything in house, etc.
A bigger company would probably wait 2 years, maybe address the problem in the next version, and then expect everyone to pay full price. Or tell the minority they are out of luck. So while my approach certainly complicates things for me, I feel it is better all around.
So let me tell you right now. Improvements are coming. Improvements are always coming. I've never going to stop making improvements. I don't know when or what they will be, but they will come. I have lots of ideas and I'm really busy. And you will be able to have the benefit of those improvements for a fair price based on the added value. I will announce improvements at a time that it makes sense to, because I can't really promise what doesn't exist yet. The R&D has to happen first.
Let's talk specifics about ShotMarker. When I announced it in February it was $799 for a personal system. My goal was to create the first low cost e-target for personal use. I wanted to produce a single-target only personal system first and then think about designing a server for running larger matches later. At this point I had the core design finished and tested and I was in the middle of ordering parts.
The day the website went up, the first phone call said "I want 15" and I told him this was a personal system, there was no server, this would be something for the future. The second person who called wanted 175. That's not a typo. So I called the first person back and told him there would be multi-target support.
So I built support for 250 targets into the Access Point without changing the hardware at all. I figured out how and spent 3 weeks rewriting the RF protocol while production parts were coming in the door in order to add value without changing the price, while reducing potential future profit from selling servers. Imagine how that would go over if I had a boss to answer to.
I decided I was going to do the best I could to cram as much value as possible into an $800 system. All I ask in return is that you pay $800 for the system.
The price is not going down. Barring some unforeseen event, I believe there is more than enough value there and the price is exactly where it should be. If anything it should be higher, but I really want to see e-targets everywhere, and I really enjoy being able to help clubs outfit a full line of e-targets for the price of 2 or 3 last year. Multiple people told me earlier I should build a personal e-target for $1200-1500 so $800 is where I ended up.
Where I'm going now is scaling up to support the larger use cases. I've been working to keep the capability ahead of the requirements in order to avoid constraints before they matter. My design is modular so I can focus on one area and change one component without changing the product as a whole, or the price.
The original sensors were designed for accuracy above all else. That's what most people care about. Shot interference is a tough problem facing a minority and I had planned on tackling it before it became significant. I also knew whatever sensor design I came up with in the future would be a board swap since the cabling and Sensor Hub side of things would likely be compatible.
Missed shots are statistically rare events that only happen in real world conditions that I can't test for on my own. Having very helpful and supportive users means almost every missed shot ended up in my email inbox with a report and some raw data attached to it. From this I developed software filters and warnings that helped, and the data was essential to build an understanding of the problem.
It wasn't just missed shots, all kinds of user-error type issues that come from learning a new system led to making the software more intuitive. There is an early adopter process here, but it's quick and iterative, and by the time my production ramped up enough that more targets were everywhere, the kinks were mostly worked out.
Software is fluid. It's going to evolve. I get requests every day. There's nothing to fix, it works fine as is, but it's going to keep improving, and you are going to get those improvements for free.
Hardware is different. It's difficult to design prototypes, test, iterate, decide to order a large production batch, and hope for the best. There's more of an outsourcing component and it takes time to work things out with suppliers. There are always issues, and some are harder to fix than others. Every time a batch of parts is running out, I have to choose between reordering the same thing and living with the same issues, or trying to fix it through redesign. Changes take months to prototype, and then months for production parts to arrive. A lot can happen in two months, such as, running out of parts, or new problems to appear. So I have to overlap multiple batches and keep track of multiple versions of things simultaneously.
I am usually going to choose fix. It's better for you but it's not something most companies would do. I used to work at one and it was frustrating as an engineer who just wanted to build the best thing. Now I'm the boss and I will not hesitate to redesign everything to make one small thing better.
Fairly often I'm going to change the design for one reason or another and the product is going to become slightly different. The price won't change, the functionality won't change, I probably won't even update the website right away. It's continuous and there are no version numbers really. It's different from how any other product is developed, and I work differently from anyone else you might be trying to compare to. I basically just do whatever I think will provide the best experience for you and the least number of tech support issues in my inbox. The less tech support I have the more time I have to make new things. After a few years of doing things like that with the AutoTrickler, I've learned how to balance it, and it's working out OK.
The one thought I keep coming back to as I read is the idea that a product is perceived as a fixed thing. As if I "release" something and then you "buy" and then that's what it is. If you wait, you will get "the next version" and that will be better, at the cost of not having the product earlier. In reality, at least for me and the way I operate, that's not how it works.
My goal is to give you the best thing I can as fast as I can. I have ideas and I implement them as quickly as possible. There is money in selling products today but in the long term selling better products and having happy customers is more important.
When I started with the AutoTrickler the idea was to make something I needed that didn't exist. I had no idea if people wanted it. I just built one and this forum showed me there was a real market there. So I made more of them. Everyone was happy. I didn't put any thought into how and when I would release a new version, at first. I was just trying to figure out how to build them faster.
Then I realized the RCBS trickler it was modded from was a crutch. No one was complaining, it wasn't a "problem" really, there are still V1 AutoTricklers being used today, but there was definitely room for improvement. So I found a machinist and we designed a custom aluminum trickler. I found these great bronze bushings that last forever and don't need to be lubricated. I released that as a $65 upgrade which is break even for me. At the volume I sell at, $65 is not much for anything that has to be designed, manufactured, assembled, tested, cleaned, packed in a box with instructions, and shipped, no matter how small. I just wanted everyone to upgrade, and hoped it would make tech support easier down the road.
To me, I think of my customers like we're all on a team. I want you to have the full experience from whatever cool thing I come up with. You pay not for the product, but for the capability it offers. You provide feedback, I make improvements. If it stops working, I fix it. This is not supposed to be adversarial. I feel an obligation to provide value, and I appreciate patience and constructive feedback that results in improvements which help more people.
It's fair to pay the incremental value of any upgrade. You shouldn't have to pay to fix obvious problems, and you shouldn't have to pay full price all over again for a new version because that's not fair value. I really, really try to provide painless upgrade paths for the people that need it. In the past, I have always charged the break even price for improvements. The new o-rings for the trickler are free. The 8mm upgrade for the AutoThrow was $15. These new sensors are $20 if you ship me your old ones because that's what it costs me to replace the boards. Even the regular price of a sensor is $40 because I don't feel like I should be profiting when you shoot a sensor by accident, and replacing sensors doesn't provide any more value to you. You have to pay for the product in the first place, but you shouldn't have to pay twice for the same thing. If it's warranty, I pay shipping. If it's added value, you pay shipping, but often the new parts are free. I might even buy back your old parts if I think I can sell them to someone else who has been asking for a discount.
Funny story. I recently bought a Sensor Hub from someone which had TWO bullet holes in it, fixed the antenna, and sold to someone else who didn't mind the bullet holes. I don't make any money from that but it was an opportunity to put a functioning e-target in someone's hands.
Sometimes the minority has an issue that most people wouldn't experience. Maybe they are doing something slightly outside of the original design intent, or maybe it's a limitation that I didn't realize but only for a specific use case. This is where it gets tricky. To the ones that need the fix, it feels like a warranty issue because that value was expected, although not explicitly stated. However if I offer the upgrade for free to everyone then the majority, who don't even need it, will jump on the free upgrade. So I have to at least cover my costs and it becomes a minimal cost upgrade. Sometimes there's a balance between considering an issue warranty repair for free vs. an upgrade which should be at cost.
This is why I design modular products that can be changed and upgraded easily. 3D printing, building everything in house, etc.
A bigger company would probably wait 2 years, maybe address the problem in the next version, and then expect everyone to pay full price. Or tell the minority they are out of luck. So while my approach certainly complicates things for me, I feel it is better all around.
So let me tell you right now. Improvements are coming. Improvements are always coming. I've never going to stop making improvements. I don't know when or what they will be, but they will come. I have lots of ideas and I'm really busy. And you will be able to have the benefit of those improvements for a fair price based on the added value. I will announce improvements at a time that it makes sense to, because I can't really promise what doesn't exist yet. The R&D has to happen first.
Let's talk specifics about ShotMarker. When I announced it in February it was $799 for a personal system. My goal was to create the first low cost e-target for personal use. I wanted to produce a single-target only personal system first and then think about designing a server for running larger matches later. At this point I had the core design finished and tested and I was in the middle of ordering parts.
The day the website went up, the first phone call said "I want 15" and I told him this was a personal system, there was no server, this would be something for the future. The second person who called wanted 175. That's not a typo. So I called the first person back and told him there would be multi-target support.
So I built support for 250 targets into the Access Point without changing the hardware at all. I figured out how and spent 3 weeks rewriting the RF protocol while production parts were coming in the door in order to add value without changing the price, while reducing potential future profit from selling servers. Imagine how that would go over if I had a boss to answer to.
I decided I was going to do the best I could to cram as much value as possible into an $800 system. All I ask in return is that you pay $800 for the system.
The price is not going down. Barring some unforeseen event, I believe there is more than enough value there and the price is exactly where it should be. If anything it should be higher, but I really want to see e-targets everywhere, and I really enjoy being able to help clubs outfit a full line of e-targets for the price of 2 or 3 last year. Multiple people told me earlier I should build a personal e-target for $1200-1500 so $800 is where I ended up.
Where I'm going now is scaling up to support the larger use cases. I've been working to keep the capability ahead of the requirements in order to avoid constraints before they matter. My design is modular so I can focus on one area and change one component without changing the product as a whole, or the price.
The original sensors were designed for accuracy above all else. That's what most people care about. Shot interference is a tough problem facing a minority and I had planned on tackling it before it became significant. I also knew whatever sensor design I came up with in the future would be a board swap since the cabling and Sensor Hub side of things would likely be compatible.
Missed shots are statistically rare events that only happen in real world conditions that I can't test for on my own. Having very helpful and supportive users means almost every missed shot ended up in my email inbox with a report and some raw data attached to it. From this I developed software filters and warnings that helped, and the data was essential to build an understanding of the problem.
It wasn't just missed shots, all kinds of user-error type issues that come from learning a new system led to making the software more intuitive. There is an early adopter process here, but it's quick and iterative, and by the time my production ramped up enough that more targets were everywhere, the kinks were mostly worked out.
Software is fluid. It's going to evolve. I get requests every day. There's nothing to fix, it works fine as is, but it's going to keep improving, and you are going to get those improvements for free.
Hardware is different. It's difficult to design prototypes, test, iterate, decide to order a large production batch, and hope for the best. There's more of an outsourcing component and it takes time to work things out with suppliers. There are always issues, and some are harder to fix than others. Every time a batch of parts is running out, I have to choose between reordering the same thing and living with the same issues, or trying to fix it through redesign. Changes take months to prototype, and then months for production parts to arrive. A lot can happen in two months, such as, running out of parts, or new problems to appear. So I have to overlap multiple batches and keep track of multiple versions of things simultaneously.
I am usually going to choose fix. It's better for you but it's not something most companies would do. I used to work at one and it was frustrating as an engineer who just wanted to build the best thing. Now I'm the boss and I will not hesitate to redesign everything to make one small thing better.
Fairly often I'm going to change the design for one reason or another and the product is going to become slightly different. The price won't change, the functionality won't change, I probably won't even update the website right away. It's continuous and there are no version numbers really. It's different from how any other product is developed, and I work differently from anyone else you might be trying to compare to. I basically just do whatever I think will provide the best experience for you and the least number of tech support issues in my inbox. The less tech support I have the more time I have to make new things. After a few years of doing things like that with the AutoTrickler, I've learned how to balance it, and it's working out OK.
OMG I think you can cut yourself a break and make a margin on replacement sensors when people shoot them!
I've probably jinxed myself...
When I was at my little local range in Homestead last week I mentioned Shotmarker. In the course of the ensuing conversation the RO recounted a situation he'd witnessed not so long ago. Someone was using a target camera at 500 yards, until a shooter 1 or 2 seats over shot the camera.
I'd be mad if I shot my sensor or hub, but I'd be doubly made if an idiot next to me shot it!
When I was at my little local range in Homestead last week I mentioned Shotmarker. In the course of the ensuing conversation the RO recounted a situation he'd witnessed not so long ago. Someone was using a target camera at 500 yards, until a shooter 1 or 2 seats over shot the camera.
I'd be mad if I shot my sensor or hub, but I'd be doubly made if an idiot next to me shot it!First the Autotrickler and now affordable E targets. Thank you Adam. You make my experience as a shooter (way) better
I can’t wait to see what he comes up with next!
Ken
I can’t wait to see what he comes up with next!
Ken
Monte F
Silver $$ Contributor
I have learned it is a matter of when not if something will get shot downrange no matter how unlikely or improbable. At the local range here the benches at the 600 yd. line got shot by .50BMG from the 1000 yd. line. Apparently the SWAT snipers using the range did not think you had to adjust the elevation on the scope when shooting that far back!I've probably jinxed myself...
When I was at my little local range in Homestead last week I mentioned Shotmarker. In the course of the ensuing conversation the RO recounted a situation he'd witnessed not so long ago. Someone was using a target camera at 500 yards, until a shooter 1 or 2 seats over shot the camera.
CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
Never ever saw an E target until my brother-in-law showed up at Manatee with a ShotMarker last week. Worked great and I got involved using it. NOT end of story. Yesterday it did NOT work.
Seemed when he got there another shooter had already set up his ShotMarker. From never seeing one to two in just a week would be real interesting. It was but not of positive interest. Seemed the owners of the systems could not get them to work near each other. Their conclusions were that the two units interfered with each other. They seem to think there's a programming way to get them to work without some kind of "Hub" that control multiple units. After much fiddling with their setting they gave up and my brother-in-law was not able to use his at all.
Is this a common issue for individual owners bringing them to a range for personal use?
Seemed when he got there another shooter had already set up his ShotMarker. From never seeing one to two in just a week would be real interesting. It was but not of positive interest. Seemed the owners of the systems could not get them to work near each other. Their conclusions were that the two units interfered with each other. They seem to think there's a programming way to get them to work without some kind of "Hub" that control multiple units. After much fiddling with their setting they gave up and my brother-in-law was not able to use his at all.
Is this a common issue for individual owners bringing them to a range for personal use?
Albany Mountain
Silver $$ Contributor
There is a process in the setup to allow two or more to operate independant within the group. Within the system management, "Switch Channel" You set up the wifi id to shotmarker on the first target, shotmarker2 on the second etc. They just need to read up on these details in the manual furnished.
You can also setup for multiple channels,
You can also setup for multiple channels,
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