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Shot Marker (Review)

This makes me wonder about target frame mounting rigidity. I have been led to believe that the accuracy of these types of electronic targets is reduced (sometimes significantly) if there is any wobble in the target and that care must be used to insure the target can't sway or move at all in the wind.

I have the impression that a typical existing fixed target support may or may not be suitable for an E.T. face and that a typical target system which is raised and lowered behind a berm is almost surely too wobbly to be used with an E.T. face.

Have I been misinformed as to how important rigid target face mounting is? Every up-and-down target carrier associated with a pit and berm configuration that I've ever used is shaky to one degree or another. Can a simple E.T. target frame be mounted to such a carrier and be expected to work properly or not? Perhaps Adam can chime in here.

Yes it is important. However it is not NEARLY as important with 8 sensors as it is with 5.

The newer 8 sensor design can measure and account for the incoming angle of the bullet, so any static change in orientation is not a problem at all. This is why you can calibrate the frame once and shoot in any position at any distance. The calibration is valid forever as long as you put your paper target in the same place and don't move the brackets.

With 8 sensors the only problem left is when the target is physically in motion at the instant the bullet arrives. This will produce a random error of up to maybe 1/4". It's the only significant source of random error, but it's not much in the big picture.

With the 5 sensor systems that most people have used over the past few years, any orientation change produces both a large calibration shift as well as a skewing of the pattern of reported shots. If the frame is rocking back and forth in the wind, this can easily be multiple inches of random elevation shot to shot during your string. At our club we went to great effort to solve this by levering the frame back with a 2x4 under tension from a ratchet strap, and doubling the 2x6 legs to increase stiffness.

As long as the frame isn't freely rocking back and forth excessively, it's fine. With 8 sensors, a little flex in the frame is fine. As long as you aren't measuring every bullet hole with calipers to post a review of e-target accuracy on a windy day, it's fine. Just put some reasonable effort into securing the frame and shoot your match.

ShotMarker will tell you if your frame isn't straight enough or isn't secured properly. It can measure shot quality (frame straightness) and the variation of the apparent incoming angle of the shots in a string. There should be no guessing. I have been analyzing data from customers, advising when their frames could use some work, and improving the built in software to provide relevant information so I don't have to analyze the data myself.
 
How much space between firing points would solve the sound interference issue?

We have a 27 point KD range with target carriers on 9 foot centers and envision using four ETs for starters. we can place the ETs on 9, 18, 27.... foot centers as needed to eliminate this issue.

I don't think any practical amount of space would solve it. Especially since you can't scale that up to 5-10 targets.

It would be better to have the shooters fire in groups, 2 or 3 at a time. For example group 2 starts 1 minute after group 1, the moment the last bullet is fired.

If you can limit the number of shooters firing rapidly at once to 3, then the conflict rate should be less than 1% which ought to be acceptable.
 
Update: (brutal honesty included!!)

Last week I turned on the Access Point to see if I could transfer the saved targets to the computer. Somehow the file in the Access Point got corrupted and wouldn't boot meaning the unit wouldn't broadcast wifi and was inaccessible. Adam was very helpful and responsive. Out of curiosity he had me disassemble the access point to remove the SD card download software and reinstall it to the SD card. This solved the problem. The only reason I did that was to have the target available for league night. Adam is shipping a new Access Point. It's electronic, if it only screws up 1 in 1000, I will find it. Customer service was stellar.

No issues on the slow fire shot recording.

Back to the problem of picking up rapid fire strings:

This time our target was on the far left side of the range on lane 2. We left a one target space gap and placed another electronic target on lane 4. Two target gap then the manual pulled targets from lane 7 on up.

We then shot 4 sets of sitting rapids.

Result:
Shotmarker dropped 1 shot on 3 strings IE 10 shots fired, 9 shots counted.
Electronic Target 4 dropped 2 shots on one string, then 1 shot on another string, then oddly counted 12 shots on the last string.

Each target got 1 string of fire scored correctly.

Conclusion:
Not quite ready for XTC. Great for single shot firing.

At this stage of development, any club that wants to convert to personal microphone targets to run XTC matches better tell the shooters to plan on multiple re-fires!
 
Posted this below on facebook today to clear up some misinformation going around about the sensors in the ShotMarker.

Regarding rapid fire specifically, it is a particularly difficult scenario for open systems because of the synchronization of the shooting. Reducing sensitivity is not a solution, only a help that is negated by adding a few more shooters to the line. To date, with the tests I am aware of having around 500 shots fired on both ShotMarker and Solo in controlled multi-target rapid fire testing, the frequency of missed shots from both systems have been the same, and expected, at around 2% for 3-4 targets. The ShotMarker has also effectively avoided displaying ghost shots on score which did appear in Solo strings.

The primary reason to reduce sensitivity is to avoid shot interference on large ranges with 20+ targets in slow fire. So far I do not know of a single confirmed missed shot on ShotMarker in slow fire conditions. I have run matches on 4-5 targets, around 5000 shots fired, with no missed shots (only shooters later confirmed to have missed the target). However I understand that a reduced sensitivity sensor will be needed for the few ranges who will be installing a large number of targets, and I will provide that as part of the product.

It can happen, but crossfires and missing the target is much more frequent in practice. When the target doesn't record a shot in slow fire and you have no explanation, it's probably not shot interference. However it's good practice to give the shooter the benefit of the doubt as a matter of protocol.

---

ShotMarker currently uses MEMS ultrasonic microphones which detect sound in the 100khz frequency range. MEMS is a class of micro-mechanical sensor technology which has developed quickly over the past decade largely due to mass production of cell phones. Accelerometers and gyroscopes are other examples of MEMS sensors which have replaced the larger, more expensive industrial alternatives based on older technology and lower volume production.

The key advantage of this tiny sensor is its fast response. It will trigger consistently from an incoming shot in only 2 microseconds, compared to a typical 10 - 25 microsecond response of electret or piezoelectric sensors. This provides a consistent, repeatable signal from bullets of any caliber, at any position on target or incoming angle, which significantly reduces random error in real-world conditions where not every shot arrives in exactly the same way.
 
A typical 80 round XTC match has 1/2 of the rounds (40) rapid fire. With a 2% etarget false miss rate one would expect to get hit with this more often then not - likleyhood 80%.
 
Does anyone have any data on how far the open face electronic type target would have to be spaced to eliminate the shock wave interference issue?
 
I haven’t developed the models but those who have say:

“I don't think any practical amount of space would solve it. Especially since you can't scale that up to 5-10 targets.”

Seems like you either have to develop rules that benefit the shooter, in the event of an erroneous miss or ghost shot scoring on the screen, and give the shooter the benefit of the screw up and award him a 10 or spend more money and buy equipment that doesn’t have inherent faults. Its propably a mistake to use equipment that is fundamental designed for single use, in a scaled up match environment.
 
I haven’t developed the models but those who have say:

“I don't think any practical amount of space would solve it. Especially since you can't scale that up to 5-10 targets.”

Seems like you either have to develop rules that benefit the shooter, in the event of an erroneous miss or ghost shot scoring on the screen, and give the shooter the benefit of the screw up and award him a 10 or spend more money and buy equipment that doesn’t have inherent faults. Its propably a mistake to use equipment that is fundamental designed for single use, in a scaled up match environment.

Maybe so, but at some point the cost difference has to be taken into serious consideration. At $800/target vs $8000/target, clubs will be willing to accept some minor issues like missed shots in rapids. An $800/target system suddenly makes e-targets a possibility for smaller clubs that couldn’t have even considered the idea 1 year ago.
 
I haven’t developed the models but those who have say:

“I don't think any practical amount of space would solve it. Especially since you can't scale that up to 5-10 targets.”

Seems like you either have to develop rules that benefit the shooter, in the event of an erroneous miss or ghost shot scoring on the screen, and give the shooter the benefit of the screw up and award him a 10 or spend more money and buy equipment that doesn’t have inherent faults. Its propably a mistake to use equipment that is fundamental designed for single use, in a scaled up match environment.
I was asking if anyone has any data. We have access to a range with 27 firing points on nine foot centers so there are options on spacing as well as other options that may mitigate the problem if we had data to guide us.
 
Maybe so, but at some point the cost difference has to be taken into serious consideration. At $800/target vs $8000/target, clubs will be willing to accept some minor issues like missed shots in rapids. An $800/target system suddenly makes e-targets a possibility for smaller clubs that couldn’t have even considered the idea 1 year ago.
The fundamental skill as a rifleman is to not miss the target, no? So, you say “clubs will be willing to accept some minor issues like missd shots” , duh?
 
The fundamental skill as a rifleman is to not miss the target, no? So, you say “clubs will be willing to accept some minor issues like missd shots” , duh?

I fully understand the fundamental skill as a rifleman, but yes, clubs will be willing to accept some minor issues like missed shots in rapids. Shots get missed in rapids on paper targets - I’m sure you are familiar with the “9 yes/9 no” rule. At the end of the day, this sport is nothing more than a hobby. The dollar value that can be assigned to perfection in a target system will naturally be on a sliding scale, depending on many factors. If System A gives you 98% of the performance of System B at 10% of the cost, the small performance difference doesn’t seem like as big of a deal. Most clubs in the US can’t afford System B in the first place, I know none of the ones I belong to can. For individual shooters looking for practice tools, the expensive systems aren’t even in the conversation. No one gets paid to compete in this sport, and dollars are finite.

Two of the clubs I belong to are in the early stages of looking into electronic target systems. System B is not in consideration; not because it isn’t a good product, but because it costs too much. Similarly, I don’t look at Ferrari’s when I am in the market for a car, though I am certain they are great. The company selling system B costing 10x the price of this one is going to have difficulty competing, regardless of whether they are a superior system. That’s just basic economics.
 
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All I can say right now is that I will not rest until my product is the only option no matter what your use case or budget. As I've said elsewhere, ShotMarker is not static. It will evolve into the future. The performance of the system right now not as relevant as my commitment to improve it. You can take my word for it, or you can just wait a few months and see what happens.
 
All I can say right now is that I will not rest until my product is the only option no matter what your use case or budget. As I've said elsewhere, ShotMarker is not static. It will evolve into the future. The performance of the system right now not as relevant as my commitment to improve it. You can take my word for it, or you can just wait a few months and see what happens.
For future improvements to your Shotmarker assuming there will be, will there be the option to update it via new software updates or will a new version be its replacement?
 
........At the end of the day, this sport is nothing more than a hobby.
......
Right you are. P100, DR, Regional and National championships, etc. Who Cares about details.

Not arguing the cost issue, only suggesting that when the etarget screws up the shooter is awarded a 10 for that missing shot. Most would be happy.
 
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At our range we have completed a 15 target setup (several spare frames as well) for ShotMaker. We built new frames of aluminum that mount in our existing very robust carriers and have also stiffened the bases of those up even more. The frames all measure within .4 mm of each other in all dimensions, most (12 of 17) are exactly the same to the 1/10th of a mm. To date we have put in excess of 6K rounds down range, including two approved NRA Matches, one XTC and one Mid-Range.

We have an XTC coming in a week, August 26th, followed by the State Championships XTC September 8-9. So far we have only had to deal with a few (less than 5 crossfires), no missing shots, although one unaccounted for extra shot (in Mid-Range Slow Fire - we believe we tracked that down to a plug that someone must have mishandled and stepped on - bending it, and we believe causing target #5 to have the upper right hand corner sensor drop in and out). We did have one shot registration that clearly was an error (the velocity was showing 3877 fps outside the 6 ring from a Service Rifle), the scorer showed no extra shots, nor were there any in either direction, two targets either side so it was deleted from the scorecard.

upload_2018-8-19_22-57-58.jpeg

We did a lot of testing over the past few months prior to shooting the actual matches. We fortunately have a lot of young as well as older very experienced engineers (including EW/ECM as well as results and scoring operators and officials from Olympic Games and World Cups going back to 1995 - so Electronic Timing, Scoring and Judging is not something new to the core implementation team) and they have monitored very closely the "detailed data available from the all sensor events setting” and our only concern is avoiding issues in rapids, as everyone else rightfully is also focused. No one like re-fires (I’m sure there are exceptions, but that’s for another thread) In extensive conversations with Adam and in our own hand on experience, viewing the details, testing various baffling techniques, we are not seeing the system showing any performance issues we have not seen in the past with traditional targets (and frankly the disappearance of statistical errors in prone slow fire has been a pleasure). Having shot on other open sensor systems for many years, the increase in sensitivity and number of sensors is not causing the problem, in fact it is the solution - Shockwaves spread out across the range, from what we’ve seen so far, the accuracy of the sensors (and we believe in no small part the quality of the frames and their bracing), Shotmaker so far is scoring only those shots on the target, although the “deep detailed data” shows shockwaves from adjacent targets being “noted”, but discarded as off target. Higher sensitivity, not less is how you get the best accuracy and we think is contributing to the lack of dropped or extra shots on targets in rapids. Another thing we are in the process of doing this week is to double check firing point alignment with the targets - the more square to the target the shooter is the better the accuracy of the system - we found this to be the case by intentionally shooting several targets over and watching the data from the targets in between.

upload_2018-8-19_22-55-7.jpeg

While we have been very successful so far on rapids, the detailed data does show the overlapping shockwaves in the detailed data. We have seen some very close overlapping waves, especially at 200yds. At 300yds the overlaps were weak enough that we see no reason to space out the shooters, but will try a new processes at match next weekend. We will shoot both 300 and 200 rapids dividing the relays into two groups, A & B. A will fire, then B will fire. It will provide a lot of additional data. We are also borrowing some very precise sensors from a nearby major defense weapons contractor to characterize in detail the shockwave patterns overtime on our range (in several events) and see if we can provide some additional useful data to Adam as well as create a visualization and empirical data that might help us isolate when and why (and we are sure we will) we do have a missing or extra shot. While the data will be specific to our range it should be useful to others. One final note: We’ve had fully functional ShotMaker Hospital Targets up for both testing and Matches, as well as empty positions on some relays - NONE have shown an errant shot that wasn’t a crossfire. We will continue to share our data with you, especially the outcome from the next two XTC matches. To repeat, we knew their was risk, but we believe it has been worth it. As ShotMaker continues to mature (although it’s dam good now) we expect the installation will service us well and have been a wise and valuable investment for our club and the sport.
 
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Side note: We moved the sensor down well below the impact berm and have, made our own custom length cables and have cable clips to keep them in place on the targets. We also have added a small pair of handles on each side to make them easier to "gently" put them away. We have also extended the antenna up the left side of each target to near the the top. A shot wire or antenna is a lot better than a sensor hub. The target shown was #1 for initial testing a while back.
 
Side note: We moved the sensor down well below the impact berm and have, made our own custom length cables and have cable clips to keep them in place on the targets. We also have added a small pair of handles on each side to make them easier to "gently" put them away. We have also extended the antenna up the left side of each target to near the the top. A shot wire or antenna is a lot better than a sensor hub. The target shown was #1 for initial testing a while back.
Great information you've posted here! A few of us at our club have some Shot Marker targets on order and had plans to play around with them as you've described here. Thanks again for sharing this is valuable info for us!

Can you post a picture or give some more detail on your antenna modification? I really like that idea. We put on an F- Class classroom and range clinic every year in Feb/March for new shooters and were just discussing yesterday the need to install a gong or something similar as Lodi did for those not having come ups their first match...... which is often with the new shooters we've been getting into the sport. We don't want to stifle the increase in participation we've been having from our clinics by intimidating new shooters on the possibility of damaging the targets. Your antenna modification to protect the sensor hub behind the berm is a great idea I want to copy.
 

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