shortcut to finding a tight group

[Texas10]

Nice shooting Toby! How 'bout a pic of that very special BR gun, your shooting equipment, and a thorough description of it all, along with your reloading equipment and, if you don't mind, an good approximate cost of it all, plus the conditions you shot in, range pics and anything else you might think contributed to your success.

I haven't read Tony Boyers book, but I'd like too. I suspect he doesn't mention that one could buy a brand new, fully equipped, top of the line Mercedes for what he has into his sport. Or maybe not....be fun to know for sure.

I have been competing for most of my life, but not in shooting sports, and the one thing I've learned that is most important is you have to KNOW your equipment, and practice daily. WHAT you have is not as important as being intimately familiar with it's abilities, and yours.

I have 6mmBR Savage I built from parts. Including scope, I have less than $1000 into it. It doesn't shoot like your gun, nor do I expect it to, regardless of how I develop my load. And I'm fairly confident I don't have your shooting skills or eyesight either.

But I think it is a little unfair to post an unqualified picture like yours and intimate that using this or that loading procedure will result in one hole groups for what ever gun one has in his hands. I am fairly confident though, that in terms of quality, you are not shooting an off the shelf gun.

Not trying to be critical here, but would appreciate some useful information added to this discussion that, so far as I can tell, has been mostly just bravado.

 

[TackDriv3r]

1) ladder test
2) tweak seating depth

How far would you do the ladder testing? I hear most shooters use 400 to 500 yards for those types of testings.

 

[dmoran]

@TackDriv3r -
Couple aspects that are "time savers" for me:

1. A rule of thumb that holds pretty close for me and saves time: "the 3% of charge" rule of thumb.
Want to see the next node up or down, changing the charge 3% up or down will typically put you close.

2. Another time saver for me is; "tuning at intended distance".
Tuning a load at other distances, need to be confirmed at the intended distance, and often will not produce the best tune for the intended distance. Not saying they may not be good, but often not as good or tight as can be produced when "tuned at intended distance".

Great topic and question !.!.!
Donovan

 

[dmoran]

How far would you do the ladder testing?

300yd minimum distance is my advise. The further the better, in my experience.
Donovan

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

New barrel--$300
New stock---$400
New Jewel trigger--$175
New custom action---$1200
New Weaver t36 scope--$425
Total---$2500

That's an old Mercedes.

 

[butchlambert]

New barrel--$300
New stock---$400
New Jewel trigger--$175
New custom action---$1200
New Weaver t36 scope--$425
Total---$2500

That's an old Mercedes.

I think you left a little out and he doesn't use a Weaver scope.

Just rattling your cage a little.

 

[billlarson]

How far would you do the ladder testing? I hear most shooters use 400 to 500 yards for those types of testings.

I start at 100 yds......
that should give you a good load window....
then... within that window load powder in 3% increments.....
do some 3 shot groups again at 100....within that ladder window...
the farther away you`re going to shoot..... dictates bullet quality...... and powder dispersion accuracy......
omho
bill

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

Nice shooting Toby! How 'bout a pic of that very special BR gun, your shooting equipment, and a thorough description of it all, along with your reloading equipment and, if you don't mind, an good approximate cost of it all, plus the conditions you shot in, range pics and anything else you might think contributed to your success.

I bought the rifle from Al Nyhus, who had done considerable winning with it but was getting out of competitive benchrest. I paid $2K for the rifle and 3 barrels, with 0, 250, and 500 rounds on them. It also came with a BRX Wilson seater, but I use that seater for the vanilla 30BR and it works fine. I use a Harrell's FL bushing die that I bought once I had the rifle. Bought a used Leupold 45x45 for $750.

Buying a used BR rifle *that is known to be competitive* (not all are) is absolutely the fastest and most cost-effective route to shooting small. Thanks, Al!

Nothing special about any of the loading equipment or practices -- everything you need to know is on this site. http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/30br/

That target was shot with Berger 115gr bullets just to get some brass fireformed and develop some basic load info. RG Robinett sent me some of his 118gr BIBs, which will shoot even better.

If you've never shot a real BR rifle you don't know what you're missing (pun intended). I sold a Borden-smithed LV rifle (which had shot groups in the zeros in competition for me) to a new shooter in CA, sent him some prepped brass, bullets, and load info, and on his first trip to the range he shot a 0.104 at 100yd -- by FAR the best group he had ever shot in his life. You may think that "It's the Indian and not the arrow," but the reality is that both the rifle and shooter have to do their job. Nothing shortens the learning curve like a truly accurate rifle.

 

[1953greg]

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.....I have read this post about 75 times....each time I read it, it gets more mysterious!!!!! Would love to see an English translation just to understand what it is he's really trying to say here. Then go back and read the post again to extrapolate.....but something tells me that neither is likely!!!!!

"A little left field"????? Ya think?????

nah.......more like foul ball!!!!!!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I think you left a little out and he doesn't use a Weaver scope.

Just rattling your cage a little.

Yes sir, I did...labor being the biggest. My point was to just list the approximate cost of the major components of a new build. It was mentioned by someone else that he'd built a Savage that shoots quarter sized groups for $1000 and he stated the cost of Toby's rifle to be in the range of a fully loaded Mercedes Benz.
You, I and most everyone on this site knows that to be very false.

If Tex is happy with his Savage, more power to him, but myself, I'd much rather have a $3000 rifle that shoots dots than a $1000 Savage that shoots about an inch groups. His rifle will kill any deer or critter he wants to kill, probably, and do a fine job of it, but will be dead last in a BR match.

Potential new shooters need to know that the cost of a new and competitive BR rifle is nowhere near the cost of a loaded luxury Mercedes and that the sport is not all that expensive to play. It does cost enough though, that you have to want to do it. You can build a competitive rifle for about $3K including a Weaver t36 and labor. It's about priorities but is no more expensive than golf.

The subject of this thread is about shortcuts to shooting a tight group. If I had to say what I think is the best and real shortcut to doing just that, I'd say it's a tuner. While this shortcut method may well leave a little bit on the table vs. full blown load development... numerous times I have simply thrown a known good load for a given cartridge, such as, 28.5gr of n133 in a ppc for example, at a gun and tuned it in by simply nudging the tuner. I don't know how it can get any easier than that. And it often works just as well as full on traditional tuning methods.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

I am fairly confident though, that in terms of quality, you are not shooting an off the shelf gun.

Here's my off-the-shelf big game rifle, a Remington 700 Sendero in .300WinMag. Load workup is just as simple as for a BR rifle; in some ways, even less complicated because I shoot Barnes bullets and don't spend a lot of time fiddling with seating depth, just go 0.050" off the lands. This first target is a powder charge/pressure test in 0.9gr increments of H4831SC (RWS brass, Win LRM primers, Barnes 180gr TSX). One shot with each charge at 100 yards (a ladder test). You can see a wide node around 76.4gr.



I neck sized the once-fired brass with a Lee collet die, body sized with a Redding body die enough for easy chambering (this is a hunting rifle), and loaded up some rounds with 76.4gr H4831SC to zero my rifle at 200 yards. The first fouler isn't shown, F2 is the second fouler, 3 and 4 showed me where to adjust the scope (Leupold 4.5-14x56), and the other three 1-shot targets verified the 200 yard zero. [On an IBS 200-yard hunter target the rings are spaced at 0.5".] This isn't going to win any BR score shoots, but it's plenty good enough for a factory big game rifle. Total shots fired in load development: 8 (2 lower charges are not shown on the target above). Total shots fired to set/verify zero: 7. And that's about as long as I want to sit behind a .300WM sporter at the bench, anyhow.



Does this simple approach work? It does in Namibia.

 

[TackDriv3r]

That is some good write ups here guys. I just have never tried ladder testings, just 3 shot groups at 100 yards over a chrono and check SD / ES. I will do the load workups in 3 % and try a ladder test soon. While at the range sometimes I see a tight group but bad SD / ES, what do I do? I figured bad ES / SD would disperse vertical groupings at longer distances.

Often times I overlook two or three 3 shot groupings with the same POI and pick a one hole group outside the node on the next couple of groups with bad groups outside of that one hole group and later does not shoot one hole groups anymore, it could have been outside the node and a temp change screwed it up, is that possible? I guess I need to find the node where , as an example, charges of 75.5 to 77.3 grains shoots a nice cluster like Toby Bradshaw showed above in his pics. Or look for the middle charge of three 3 shot groups that have the same POI and work up again with another trip to the range and confirm. Often times I see a group that is like .5 MOA and the ES is like 10 fps or less, how do I shrink that .5 MOA since ES is so good? Seating depths will fix that alone?

To be honest, I am out of your league, especially experienced BR and rifle competition shooters that reload and shoot daily, I just learn from people like you. Thanks a ton.

 

[Homerange]

............ charges of 75.5 to 77.3 grains shoots a nice cluster like Toby Bradshaw showed above in his pics.

I think you'll find they were COAL measurements not powder charge.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

I think you'll find they were COAL measurements not powder charge.

Those are powder charges in gr of H4831SC. All bullet seating depths are the same (-0.050").

 

[Homerange]

Those are powder charges in gr of H4831SC. All bullet seating depths are the same (-0.050").

OK thanks, I mistakenly thought Tackdriver was referring to your 30BR targets from earlier in the thread.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

While at the range sometimes I see a tight group but bad SD / ES, what do I do?

Look at the targets (not just one group) at the distance(s) you want to shoot, and ignore the chronograph.

Often times I overlook two or three 3 shot groupings with the same POI and pick a one hole group outside the node

Well, that's pretty likely to be your problem.

Often times I see a group that is like .5 MOA and the ES is like 10 fps or less, how do I shrink that .5 MOA since ES is so good? Seating depths will fix that alone?

What makes you think that your rifle is capable shooting less than 0.5 MOA for aggregate accuracy? Give us a sense of what you're shooting and what kind of rests, wind flags, etc. you're using. What are you trying to accomplish?

 

[Texas10]

2 points for you gunsandgunsmithing about the tuner. By far the fastest short cut, and if a limb saver deresonator will work for you, the absolute cheapest by a landslide at 9.95!

However, if you'll re read my post, you'll see that I was not talking about Toby's gun, I was taking about Tony Boyers investment in his shooting gear when I compared it to the cost of a new Mercedes. Not just a gun, or guns, but his total investment.

And as Toby wrote, (if you have the coin) buying a known competitive set-up is also a very fast and easy way to get into the winners circle. In my opinion however, and I've seen this happen repeatedly, success won't last long. Knowing how to setup and achieve a competitive shooting gun is much different that simply co-opting some one else's work.

There is a whole lot of very valuable experience represented on this forum, and when some are generous enough to give out specifics on their successes, and some of the secrets, it can really be a gold mine to those with inquiring minds.

I was not denigrating Toby's success, far from it. I was simply asking for more specific information.

So Toby, what kind of rest do you use? How much does the gun weigh? What kind of stock? Come on, man....spill the beans. Inquiring minds would like to know..

 

[Texas10]

Yes, my little Savage will indeed shoot one inch groups...at 400 yds. And yes, that will put me last in BR competition, which is why I don't shoot competitively. But I have found that life is a lot more fun if I don't have to compare myself to anyone else on a daily basis. So I stopped competing and enjoy my successes by my self. Less stressful, and I'll probably live longer too.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

So Toby, what kind of rest do you use?

Hart/Shadetree in the front, Protektor in the back.

How much does the gun weigh?

HV (13.5#). Standard score rifle.

What kind of stock?

Looks like a McMillan Edge.

All pretty standard BR stuff, except that Stan Ware machined a cross slot in the bottom of the R/L Panda, with a recoil lug bolted in. The bedding is screwed but not glued.

It's not really a state of the art VFS gun, lacking an ejector and not taking advantage of the latest in stock design. But it will shoot.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Tex, I apologize, as I did misinterpret your prior post. As for the 9.95 Deresonator...they are not a good option, lacking consistent and repeatable adjustment. The magic of a tuner is not made of rubber. Dampening material is only a very small factor to tuner design.

Another case of my misinterpreting you was in regard to your quarter sized groups. I didn't realize that was at 400 yards. That's fine shooting and you would not be near last, but closer to 1st place with those groups at 400.