Short Headspace

[wyshadow]

Ok guys. Second time posting here and I'm trying to figure this one out. I bought a used Savage short action and had a 308 barrel laying around. I took them both to my local gunsmith. I tried rebarreling a savage action before but the Warren barrel vise gave me a headache trying to use it. When I dropped off the action and barrel, I also left the Go and NoGo gauges. After waiting three weeks for the gunsmith to install the barrel, I asked if everything went ok. We started talking about what equipment he uses and he mentioned he never uses Go and NoGo gauges to set the headspace.
So I asked him if he used the gauges I left with the gun and he said no. I then asked him how he set the headspace and he said he used factory bullets to set the headspace. I asked him the procedure on how he uses a factory round to set the headspace. He says he just screws in the barrel until the bolt handle doesn't close and backs out the barrel until the bolt closes. Once the bolt closes, the headspace is set.
I was so pissed that I waited this long for a half-ass job done to my gun that when I got home, I removed the extractor. I tested the Go and NoGo gauges, and the bolt will not close with both gauges. I did check again with factory Federal bullets I had at home, and they did load and extracted just fine. After trying to figure what my next steps should be, I started thinking if having a short headspace is really that bad. The only think I could come up with is my fired cases will have a smaller volume then a properly set headspace which would lead to a slightly slower velocities. I read that having a headspace that was too long will have a lot problems like excessive head separation and shorter case life. What do you think? I'm thinking of buying a Mechforce barrel vise and doing the job myself or will it be ok?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

You may have issues when trying to bump the shoulders back when you go to size the brass. It may or may not show up for a couple of firings but it likely will, sooner rather than later.

 

[6MMsteve]

Does it still have the Nut.... if so easy fix...loosen nut, use gauges, tighten nut

 

[6MMsteve]

I like a little feel on the go gauge when I set a barrel...but I'm not a Gunsmith, I change out barrels often, but I use the nut system, sav and rem you may be able to bump shoulders back but I would go ahead and find someone that has a vice and wrench and set it right

 

[MikeT49]

Does it still have the Nut.... if so easy fix...loosen nut, use gauges, tighten nut

This....and find a different gunsmith. Barrels need to be installed to spec so that any future owner won't have issues. With the built in recoil lug stop, Savages are relatively easy to headspace properly. Also, sizing cases short is probably going to be a PITA. Involves modifying shell holder and/or die.

 

[Ggmac]

That smith is asking for problems. Was he licensed and insured? Was he part of a gunshop or a ffl holder ?
In reality, you are limited to using only new ammo or brass . You probably will not be able to use range brass . These are NOT big issues if you don’t reload and only use the rifle for hunting and you use ammo that has been function checked in the rifle .
Its an easy fix but you already have waited for a professional job and you received a bubba , sorry you experienced that . Unfortunately many so called smiths just assemble parts now .

 

[6MMsteve]

if your thinking long headspace might work it won't, you will have extraction issues done tried that, I set headspace longer not much and formed brass then loaded a few and I could not extract the brass, that was back in my lets try this days, it don't work I'm lucky I didn't blow my arm off

 

[Walt Krafft]

That gunsmith is an idiot. The factory ammo has a tolerance on it too. You may run into a different lot of factory ammo that will not fit. Set it to the gages. That is what they are for.

 

[linebaugh]

if using factory loaded and custom chamber he could be headspacing off the bullet. Very dumb for a "gunsmith". It would not be ucommon for someone who is in contol of his own equipment to use brass to headspace, I do it, but very bad practice for public work.

While it is "likely" not a problem since you are short I would be more concerned with bolt face to breech clearance if someone used the loaded round method.

buy your own vise and do it yourself. For what you just paid a flunkie you probably could have bought the equipment.

 

[jepp2]

The first thing I would do is find out what the headspace is currently set at on your rifle. Then I would consider the action I wanted to take. I'm not condoning what the gunsmith did, but just want some data before I take action.

 

[Riesel]

Measure your factory brass, overall length and a shoulder "datum" measurement. See how your factory shoots, may surprise you. Measure fired ammo and compare. It's possible actual headspace may be off as little as a thousand from closing on a go gauge. My experience using new cases or factory ammo is the bolt will want to "crush: the case slightly. I don't do that experiment any more.

 

[Webster]

Ok guys. Second time posting here and I'm trying to figure this one out. I bought a used Savage short action and had a 308 barrel laying around. I took them both to my local gunsmith. I tried rebarreling a savage action before but the Warren barrel vise gave me a headache trying to use it. When I dropped off the action and barrel, I also left the Go and NoGo gauges. After waiting three weeks for the gunsmith to install the barrel, I asked if everything went ok. We started talking about what equipment he uses and he mentioned he never uses Go and NoGo gauges to set the headspace.
So I asked him if he used the gauges I left with the gun and he said no. I then asked him how he set the headspace and he said he used factory bullets to set the headspace. I asked him the procedure on how he uses a factory round to set the headspace. He says he just screws in the barrel until the bolt handle doesn't close and backs out the barrel until the bolt closes. Once the bolt closes, the headspace is set.
I was so pissed that I waited this long for a half-ass job done to my gun that when I got home, I removed the extractor. I tested the Go and NoGo gauges, and the bolt will not close with both gauges. I did check again with factory Federal bullets I had at home, and they did load and extracted just fine. After trying to figure what my next steps should be, I started thinking if having a short headspace is really that bad. The only think I could come up with is my fired cases will have a smaller volume then a properly set headspace which would lead to a slightly slower velocities. I read that having a headspace that was too long will have a lot problems like excessive head separation and shorter case life. What do you think? I'm thinking of buying a Mechforce barrel vise and doing the job myself or will it be ok?

Does he have any qualifications to be a gunsmith? He is saving the cost of buying go/no go guages for every caliber he works on. You gave him the gauges and he still wouldn't use them. I hope he doesn't chamber barrels. For a 308 what head space would you get if he had a 130 gr bullet and you wanted to shoot a 150 gr. Does he ask you to provide a loaded cartridge? How about taking him to small claims court to recover what he charged you and what it would cost to fix it. You would have to convince the judge that using gauges was normal and mandatory practice, How about safety issues?

 

[dellet]

Short headspace in itself should not be a problem, in fact it might allow you to actually set your sizing die up like the instructions say, which is basically set the headspace as short as possible, then shorten it another 1/4-1/2 turn (contact shell holder + 1/4-1/2 turn.

If you are finding your lands to establish a jam length like you should be, that problem is off the table.

What people forget is neck length. If base to shoulder is short, shoulder to neck mouth is long. This makes pinching a bullet with the case neck in the chamber a real possibility even when the case length is “within spec”.

If you are going to get any satisfaction for a poorly done job, refund or redone correctly, this probably the one of the best things to point out.

Then if you can get your money back, use it to buy the tools to do it yourself.

Factory ammo/brass is more often than not undersized, so in his mind he probably thinks he’s doing you a favor buy setting the rifle up to shoot factory ammo. Probably the only gunsmith in town that advertises custom builds to shoot factory ammo.

 

[ChristianSilver]

Shoot the gun before anything else. Don’t put down what the smith did before knowing what you have. You may be surprised.
Are you a reloader or just plan on factory ammo?
Measure headspace on brass pre and post firing. See how much difference in length.
See how the bolt opening and closing is after firing.

If your gunsmith has a store front business and is surviving in todays market he’s probably not an idiot.

Don’t judge a book by its cover. Shoot the gun and check things out.

 

[SKWERLZ]

You may have issues when trying to bump the shoulders back when you go to size the brass. It may or may not show up for a couple of firings but it likely will, sooner rather than later.

^^^^^^

 

[wyshadow]

The first thing I would do is find out what the headspace is currently set at on your rifle. Then I would consider the action I wanted to take. I'm not condoning what the gunsmith did, but just want some data before I take action.

The only way I can think of measuring the headspace is to fire several rounds and then measure. This the only way or is there another way without firing forming?

I have the Mechforce in the shopping cart but if any other suggestions on a different vise, let me know by the end of today.

 

[Texas Solo]

I just did my first barrel swap on a Savage. Bought the action vice and wrench from NSS. Easy job. I used the go gadget then added a piece of scotch tape. Bolt would not close with tape on go gauge, but does naked. So I have about .002" headspace. My reloads, with .002" bump, chamber nicely. But, some factory ammo like Federal Gold Metal Match will not chamber. Factory ammo is inconsistent. Within the box I had, half did chamber, half not.
You "gunsmith" is an idiot.

 

[swd]

I’ve seen factory ammo up to .014” shorter than GO, that’s definitely not the way to set headspace unless it’s requested and obviously it wasn’t.

 

[jepp2]

The only way I can think of measuring the headspace is to fire several rounds and then measure. This the only way or is there another way without firing forming?

You can take the loaded ammo you have, measure the case head to datum on it. Then add tape to the base (about 0.002" each layer) and check until you feel bolt contact on a stripped bolt when closing. You could also use shim stock in place of the tape.

If the rifle is just for your use, I don't see a problem using it as it is. If your sizing die will not set the shoulder back sufficiently (as mentioned), it isn't a big deal. Just take a few thousandths off the top of the shell holder and keep it with the dies for your rifle.

On all my rifles I keep a record of case head to datum for the headspace. This guides me on how to size my brass for each. And when I have new brass, I can see how much shorter than my headspace it is.

You can always increase the headspace in the future after you see how it shoots and what the headspace is.

 

[marazzi59]

Just curious but any chance you live in New England, if so I can help. Send me a pm if not and I can walk you through the process