Shopping For A Rifle

[Izy2190]

Hi, this is my first post and I am looking to buy my first ever rifle.

I will be using this rifle for both target shooting and hunting.

I'm from Sydney, Australia so our gun-laws are abit gay.

Firstly, we can't own an auto-loading rifle.
Secondly, we can't own/modify any type of supressor/silencer.

I am actually looking for a centrefire rifle. I've shopped and researched the rifles, calibre, scopes etc and came up with this. Please tell me if it sounds good.

Rifle- .308 Rem 700 VTR Desert Recon 22''
.308 Rem 700 SPS Tactical Synthetic
.308 Rem 7600 Realtree Camo Synth 22''

Scope- Nikon Prostaff 3-9x50 RealTree Camo N/Plex


What do you think?

Should I go for a longer barrel? I will probably be hunting medium-large sized Deer/Boar's. Maybe even Foxes. Which gun out of those three do you think would suit me most? Or do you prefer something else?

Also the scope, what do you guys think of that Nikon or do you prefer something else?

Cheers.

 

[Nodak7mm]

Morning Izy,

Caliber is a personal & in your situation may be a regional choice..

Of the three, I would would select the bolt action, 22" bbl which points you to the VTR. Primairly I would want the bolt action over the pump 7600, for many reasons, reliability, accuracy, ease of aftermarket parts and many more. The 22" barrel to take advantage of the extra 2" of barrel several reasons, a bit more velocity being the primary.. I suggest you look at the std 700 SPS Varmint as I think your paying extra for the look on the VTR and the extra noise from the built in brake.

The scope, buy the best you can afford. Dont buy something wishing you had the next model up. For a standard average Joe hunting rifle, I am sure the Prostaff will be fine. But I would assume since you are on this website, your quest for knowledge for accuracty may be a tish above the norm. Bottom line, if sticking with a Nikon, the minimum I would purchase for a hunting rifle would be the Buckmaster series. Then again, I use primarily Nightforce and Leupolds, good glass is worth saving for.. If your funds are limited, I really like my old Bausch & Lomb 3000 & 4000 series scopes I have on some of my hunting rifles. They are great glass for the $$, I cant see replacing them with newer more expensive glass cause they are perfect for their intended purpose, hunting. Look around on Ebay, you'll find some real good deals.

Welcome to the sight.

Rod

 

[Izy2190]

Thanks alot for the advice Rod. It's nice meeting you too.

Hopefully I won't have too many questions lol

What if I want to hunt Deer and Rabbit. Is the .308 too much or it wouldn't matter?

We have 7 species of deer in Australia. Although Wiki states there are 6 but we actually have 7, anyway. The forest I'm looking at going to has all 7. They are the Red, Wapiti, Fallow, Hog, Sambar, Chital and Rusa. So that's some Biology for you guys lol.

I don't want to blow the rabbit in pieces, I want it to be eatable. But I also want to bring a Deer down comfortably. What kind of Remington 700 do you recommend?

 

[jkats]

I have never done any hunting with the 308 but have shot a few rabbits with a 223 and from what i've seen from that i would think you would be lucky to find anything left of a rabbit you shot with a 308. I dont know how big any of the animals you listed are but i would look for something smaller if i was to shoot rabbits with it. I would look around the .270 if you want to do both. But thats just my two cents

 

[Izy2190]

I have never done any hunting with the 308 but have shot a few rabbits with a 223 and from what i've seen from that i would think you would be lucky to find anything left of a rabbit you shot with a 308. I dont know how big any of the animals you listed are but i would look for something smaller if i was to shoot rabbits with it. I would look around the .270 if you want to do both. But thats just my two cents

Nah the more advice I get the more it helps.

Thanks champ. I also think a .270 would be powerful enough to drop a buck.

 

[BradY]

What species of deer mate? If its fallow you can get away with a 243 I think- maybe check with the NSW game council. Its an overkill on rabbits but probably a bit more suitable to pigs, deer, foxes etc.

 

[joemax]

A Savage model 14 chambered for 7mm-08 topped off with a Nikon Buckmaster 3-9 w/ BDC reticle is what I use for deer and elk. This combo will shoot .5 inch 5 shot groups at 100 with my handloads which are a little on the hot side. Excellent accuracy for any hunting rig with out breaking the bank. Not bad looking to my eye as well. My biggest gripe about Remington is poor quality control. From my limited observations, experience, and reports from a few other accomplished varmint shooters/handloaders, it seems to be a bit of a crapshoot when you buy a Remington in regards to sub-MOA accuracy. Now, I am sure Savage turns out lemons from time to time, but of the 9 Savage rifles I own all were made to shoot sub-MOA easily with handloads. All 9 were straight from the factory with no modification neccesary. Of the 5 Remingtons I own or have monkeyed around with, I had one that I could not make shoot sub-moa using tailored loads, floating the barrel, and a good bedding job. I know my experience and those of others who have related similar occurance, proves nothing statisticaly or scientific. It just means I won't buy a Remington with out first knowing how accurate it is.

 

[Izy2190]

Sorry joemax... I'm a newbie and I'm not really familiar with the term sub-MOA. I know it's got something to do with the bullet dropping etc, but what exactly is it when it comes to rifles and what is a good sub-MOA if that makes sense lol?

 

[jkats]

You probably dont want to buy two guns but because you are new to shooting i would find a cheap 22 or even a good pellit gun that have little to no recoil to learn to shoot with(bullets are cheaper too) and will also work great for rabbits. Then you can buy your big rifle and have your fun with it.

MOA stands for minute of angle. minute of angle is 1.047 inches at 100 yards 2.094" at 200 yards and 3.141" at 300 yards and so on. So sub MOA is a gun that can shoot a group of 3 to 5 shots under 1.047 inches at 100 yards. Hope that makes sense to you.

 

[JLM]

Sounds like you need a switch barrel. Savage will take care of you there. Get a short action 308 and buy a drop in varmint barrel. That can double as your practice round. I don't know what your access to reloading supplies and ammo is but it's hard to beat 308 and 223 for off the shelf availability.

Think about blind magazines, detachable bottom metal, or single shot.

The 22 suggestion is a good one two. Any 22 is fun to shoot. You should have a 22. It's probably the only round that isn't going to tear a rabbit apart.

Good Luck,
Jeff

 

[jonbearman]

I would go with the savage switch barrel,I have a 22-250 ackely improved and a new shilen select match in 6mmbr which will kill anything in the smaller deer family. The only problem with a switch barrel is the cost of the tools you will need to swap barrels. I would probably buy a stevens in .223 and the savage model in .308.Both rifles should be well under 800.00 new or get one used.Just have a reputible gunsmith borescope it first. I have bought 3 remington VS rifles that were used and had nothing but real good results with them. They were made in the 1990's and are for sale all the time on gunbroker.com and the like. So anyways good luck and find something you like and buy it ,get shooting,lots of trigger time.Dont forget a bipod as well. Welcome to our sight Izy.Wish I was in the down under but dont have the airfare.

 

[M700]

"my first ever rifle."

"I will be using this rifle for both target shooting and hunting."

"Should I go for a longer barrel? I will probably be hunting medium-large sized Deer/Boar's. Maybe even Foxes."

"Also the scope, what do you guys think of that Nikon or do you prefer something else?"


Okay, you've done some research and came up with several versions of the Rem 700 in .308 Win. I can't argue with that, as I've been shooting that same combo for a long time now. I've happily hunted small varmints, coyotes, mule deer, and even bear with the same rifle. Have also done well in competition with it when I was on my game.

The .308 is a lot like the .30-06 in that it is one of those great "do it all" cartridges. It can play the long range target shooting game well, and it can also be used very effectively to hunt a wide variety of game. I shoot ammo from 110 grain Sierra varmint bullets to 180 grain elk bullets from mine. The 1:12 twist Krieger handles all those bullets with very good accuracy, but it really shines with 165 & 168 grain bullets at about 2750 fps.

Despite grumblings, Remington still has the reputation of building a good, accurate out-of-the-box rifle, and you can of course customize it as you wish over the years. Between all the different models you mentioned - I'd simply buy the one that I liked best. Which one "feels" best in your shoulder? Which one makes you grin when you look at it and picture yourself carrying it on a hunt? Get that one! They'll all shoot pretty well. I've noticed that recent manufacture Remington barrels tend to be a little rough, fouling pretty easily, but that they still shoot well, at least until the fouling gets the best of them. My original Remington barrel went over 4,000 rounds before it was replaced with a Krieger, and my Kriegers have lasted up to 5,600 rounds, still delivering "high master" level scores in prone competition.

There are other very good cartridges, but the .308 still shines brightly due to good barrel life, easy shooting/mild recoil, and very good terminal results on game. No need to worry much about barrel length either. With a 24" barrel I'm easily smacking the target at 800 yards, and can do 1,000 yards with that same rifle & ammo. That's about the outer limit for me and my current rifle though! We're both much happier at ranges 600 and in, quite easily done with a good .308 and good ammo. There's not enough ballistic difference in the field to worry about between a 20", 22", 24" or 26" barrel. The longer barrel will develop slightly better velocity, but not much. My friends with their 20" Rem LTR (another model you may consider) smack the 600 - 800 yard targets well.

I know how to make the "old" Remington triggers real sweet. I'm clueless on the new Remington trigger. Simply haven't even tried working on one yet. It might be something you can live with, or the whole thing is easy to replace with a Timney or other aftermarket trigger.

For scopes, I personally prefer Leupold. Have developed serious brand loyalty since Dad gave me my first Leupold, a 3-9x, in 1974. That's about 36 years ago - and it still works fine. I've purchased quite a few other Leupold scopes over the years, some used, some new. Only had to return one for service in all those years, a 4.5-14x on which the windage adjustment failed twice. That was actually from my .308 Win, a very high-use rifle. Last time I sent the scope in though was about 8 years ago and it hasn't bobbled since.

Nothing wrong with Nikon either - and if you like it, and it fits your budget, I'll not try to talk you out of it. Nikon makes a good product.

Regards, Guy

 

[nick 270]

Hi izzy i lived in ausy 4 years n hunted wen i cld.What u didnt mention was a min cal 4 samber.What ranges r u shooting at r u happy with recoil. I shoot 270 in new zealand n it is gd 4 nything i wnt 2 shoot 4 as far as i can shoot comfortably.i use 115 grain 4 pests n small deer 130 grain 4 reds n 150 4 wap n samber recoil is not noticable.there r a lot of good guns get 1 that fits your build n puts your eye nline with the best scope u can afford.There is a big difference.The 7mmo8 wld b more versitile in my opinion with a gd range of quality bullets.Good luck with your choice practice often n dont 4get takeplenty of water.Nick

 

[Kenny474]

Nick, seriously? Is your keyboard broken? This is an online forum, not a text message. I have never said anything about grammar before on any forum, but that is ridiculous.

 

[wapiti25]

Izzy, nothing wrong with the 308 for all but rabbits. You need some thing ln the 308 class for the larger deer such as the red stag but when you have that much power you destroy rabbits. nothing to eat. A second rifle or switch barrel is the better way to go for the rabbits if you want to eat them. For rabbits to eat how about a shotgun?

 

[RonAKA]

I would suggest a .243 Winchester in a Savage 12 Varminter Low Profile. It has a 1 in 9.25" twist and can handle bullets up to about 100 grains. I like the Savage because they have a nice light trigger that is better for target shooting. It also has a 26" barrel which will give you more velocity. See this catalogue:

http://www.savagearms.com/various/documents/2010_savage_catalog.pdf

No large centerfire cartridges are really suitable for rabbit though. You may want to hand load some Sierra Match bullets which are not intended to expand, and you may get away with it though. The could go straight through with just a small hole. A more suitable gun for rabbit is a .22 LR rimfire.

You can find some more information about the .243 here. It really is just the .308 cartridge but with a .243 bullet.

http://www.6mmbr.com/243win.html

 

[casspir]

Izy2190,
My advice; save and buy quality. Cry only once. May I seriously suggest two rifle`s. Start with a good .22 like a Ruger or a CZ. There are a lot of good .22`s around. Don`t buy inferior quality and seeing that you are also severely restricted in terms of fire-arms, as we are in SA, you might as well only go for quality right from the start.
The rifle`s and caliber you suggested is great. If you hand load, there is a host of different bullets and there really is not much difference between the 308 and a 30-06 (or many other calibers in terms of practical hunting distances). I use to be a PH in South Africa and have been hunting for myself for many years. During all these years I saw many calibers and clients. There are a lot of great calibers around. If they were not good, they won`t have been around for so long. Let me assure you, a great deal of the caliber`s success is due to the guy`s ability behind the trigger. Personally, for hunting in Africa, I favor a .22RF CZ, a 375H&H and a 500. However you are not a PH and don`t need the same tools. In my older years I tend to go for calibers with a lot less recoil like a 308, 7mm/284 win or even some of the 6mm`s. The 30 bullets and brass will always be available and it is a proven caliber.
I urge you to start reading and educate yourself. Begin with Cartridges of the World. As old man Frank Barnes said: “you don`t need a Magnum to kill a mouse” or a 308 to kill a rabbit!
As to optics –and this might be largely my opinion – spare yourself a lot of frustration and buy good hunting optics like a Leupold. Go for the bigger magnifications with a thin cross hair. You don’t need all these funny, hard to understand reticle`s as you will do hunting. Some brands tend to lose their Point of Impact while in transit. Never had that problem with a Leupold.
But, whatever you do, buy quality and something that is accurate and practice! Happy hunting!
Regards to the people of “Down Under”!

 

[RonAKA]

Here are a couple of links which give a quality ranking for scopes which may be of help. I find some models are quite over priced for the quality level. The Bushnell Elite series of scopes are made in Japan and I feel offer a very good quality/price balance.

http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8185

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recommended_riflescopes.htm

 

[Kenny474]

I agree with the .22LR for a second gun for use on small game that is to be eaten. A .308 is simply too much gun to leave any useful meat. I have several .22lr's, and you don't have to spend a ton to get a decent rifle.

My most recent purchase was a Marlin 795 for my little brother. I paid just over $100 for it, and it shoots great, is very light, and hasn't given me or my brother any issues in the last 2 years. It isn't quite as nice as a Ruger 10/22 and doesn't have all the aftermarket upgrades, but will serve it's purpose as a small game rifle. I can put 10 shots inside 1.5"-2" at 50 yards offhand with iron sights, and that is plenty accurate for use on small game. I was very skeptical of buying a rifle that was priced so cheap, but it has far exceeded my expectations. I honestly don't see it lacking anything when compared to a stock Ruger 10/22, with the exception going to the heavy barreled versions that cost 4 times as much. As long as I keep it clean and lubed, it fires as fast as I can pull the trigger without any problem. And if my brother's is any indication of the quality, you can expect it to last quite some time. I put in a 100 foot range at my fathers for my little brother and he has probably put close to 10,000 rounds through it with very few malfunctions, and most probably due to sub-par ammo as a 15 year old cares more about ammo quantity than quality. He has also taken 5 woodchucks with it just this summer, all with one shot.

I own a Savage 64F, and that has been a very nice rifle as well. It cost about $50 more than the Marlin, and is a little more accurate and feels a little nicer. Though I don't think it really has much of a real world advantage over the Marlin when hunting small game. It also feeds perfectly and is plenty accurate enough for small game. I haven't put as many rounds through it as the Marlin has seen, but it has been tested enough to know it's a very reliable rifle and will get the job done without issue.

Either of these rifles will serve you very well if they are available in your area. They are simple, reliable, accurate and low-cost .22's that will leave you plenty of money for your main purchase, a .308 hunting rifle. A rabbit doesn't care if you shoot it with a $100 rifle, or one costing 5 times that. If you were to equip either one with a low-cost 4X or 3-9X scope you would have a very efficient small game killing machine. I have left mine with irons as I haven't had the need to upgrade, as I have an older Marlin with a heavier barrel and a 3-9X scope that is super accurate if I need to take longer shots.

If a bolt action is more your speed, I recommend the Savage Mark 2 FV, Mark 2 FS, or if you want to go all out, the Savage Mark TR, which is an extremely well built tactical style .22LR.

I just don't feel you need to spend a ton on a second rifle just to hunt small game, as the money is best invested in your .308, or for optics to top the .308.

Just so I don't get ripped on, I am not knocking the Ruger or CZ in any way. I am simply stating that in real world hunting situations, either of the rifles above will get the job done without issue and cost a lot less. The OP is looking for a .308, not a $500 .22 to hunt rabbits. A low cost .22 will allow him to hunt rabbits, and still leave enough budget to purchase what he is really after, a .308.

Good luck with your purchase.
Kenny

 

[Kenny474]

I do disagree with the .243 one a one gun hunting outfit. As you can always down-load a larger caliber with lighter loads and bullets. But if the need for a heavy hard hitting round arises, it's hard to make up for that with a smaller caliber.

With a .308, you can shoot 110gr to 190gr bullets in a 1-12 twist and tailor the load to the game. You are limited to 55gr to 115gr bullets in the .243. For a one rifle outfit, bigger just makes more sense. It's better to have enough gun and not need it, than to need more gun and not have it.