Shilen/Rainier UltraMatch 308 barrel tearing jacket material???

[Proven Gear]

Stick: Rainier (shilen) ultra match 24" heavy stainless fluted 308
Pills: Norma Diamond 168gr SMK's @ 2725 (magnetic chronographed)

Issue: Ive got a brand new build I just finished and the accuracy went to poo after about 80 rounds, first group after zero was under 1/2 MOA, rifle held solid under half minute for the first 80 rounds then went to 2 MOA around the 100 round mark. When cleaning it I noticed ALOT of what appeared to be tiny copper shards coming out on the patches (cleaned with butchs bore shine and triple twill patches, tipton carbon fiber rod). I pushed a patch from the chamber until just before the gas hole and then pulled it back out to see if it had this stuff in it before the gas hole, and it did. So I know its not the gas hole ripping the jacket up. The throat and everything looks very uniform and extremely smooth. Im at a loss here, I have not test fired it since the cleaning... wanted to know if anyone knows of any issue with either these barrels or ammo, or what if anything could be causing this. Thanks!

 

[butchlambert]

Kinda confused? I checked their website and they listed 22 barrel manfacturers, but not Shilen. Shilen does not flute barrels. Now to your problem, what did Rainier tell you? I'm sure you gave them an opportunity to help you. Without having the barrel in hand I don't think we can help you. I don't know how you ran it in and your cleaning methods.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

It might also help to know the rig - you mentioned a gas hole, so it's a semi-auto of some type, right? Might not be pertinent, but good to know anyhow.

Do you have a borescope and if so, have you scoped the entire barrel, or at least the area up to the gas hole since you are sure that's not the issue? Are the bullets being jammed into the lands?

 

[butchlambert]

It might also help to know the rig - you mentioned a gas hole, so it's a semi-auto of some type, right? Might not be pertinent, but good to know anyhow.

Do you have a borescope and if so, have you scoped the entire barrel, or at least the area up to the gas hole since you are sure that's not the issue? Are the bullets being jammed into the lands?

Jay, I think semi is all they make or sell components.

 

[Proven Gear]

Yes its an AR10 type rifle. Rainier says their barrels are made by Shilen and are hand lapped, I have fully seated the ammo in question and there are no throat marks on the ogive or casing whatsoever. Borescoping after full cleaning shows a perfect barrel. That's why im confused, wasn't sure if anyone heard anything like this before, ive personally never seen this ever.

 

[fredhorace77]

Are you single feeding the ammo or using a magazine?

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Yes its an AR10 type rifle. Rainier says their barrels are made by Shilen and are hand lapped, I have fully seated the ammo in question and there are no throat marks on the ogive or casing whatsoever. Borescoping after full cleaning shows a perfect barrel. That's why im confused, wasn't sure if anyone heard anything like this before, ive personally never seen this ever.

Huh, I'm stumped then. Maybe someone else will have something useful.

 

[gaboon]

Check the lands it might be too sharp and cutting jackets.

 

[butchlambert]

Yes its an AR10 type rifle. Rainier says their barrels are made by Shilen and are hand lapped, I have fully seated the ammo in question and there are no throat marks on the ogive or casing whatsoever. Borescoping after full cleaning shows a perfect barrel. That's why im confused, wasn't sure if anyone heard anything like this before, ive personally never seen this ever.

I wonder why they don't list Shilen on their website and I know for a fact Shilen doesn't flute barrels. I think you need to visit with Rainier about this.

 

[gaboon]

According to barrel info they start off as Shilen blanks.

 

[butchlambert]

According to barrel info they start off as Shilen blanks.

I thought I perused their sight pretty well, link please. It is still something that he needs to take up with Rainier.

 

[gotcha]

Try swapping out scopes for a known small group shooting scope. Wouldn't hurt to check all scope mounting hardware in the process.

 

[jonbearman]

How fast are you shooting your groups?

 

[dennisinaz]

Sounds like the guy knows what he is doing and is stumped by this weird occurrence. I had a barrel nitrided that had a 40-50 rounds down the the barrel. It was extremely accurate (Mark Chanlynn barrel) once I got it back from nitride it began throwing bullets out of the group- as in 8-12" out of the groups at 200 yards. I don't know what happened but I would even get some bullets that wouldn't make it to the target.

I bought a Shilen match barrel, chambered it up and it has been shooting great. I had the nitrided barrel lightly lapped and I may put it back on and see what happens. Bore scope revealed nothing out of the ordinary. Germán Salazar looked at it for me as did Shilen. Looks good, shot really bad. Just one of those enigmas we may never figure out!

 

[Proven Gear]

Rings are Leupold MK4 torqued to 65in-lb base and 35in-lb top, optic is Vortex PST 6-24X50 EBR-2C MOA. Bore is hand lapped shilen blank then turned and fluted by or for Rainier (unclear on who does the fluting or contouring) on their "ultra match" line, its a $700 barrel and is usually sold out/back ordered for months. Im going to check torque I guess as im using a Lancer LCH carbon fiber handrail with a proprietary barrel nut that im unfamiliar with. It may stretch past what normal barrel nuts will and possibly require a higher torqueing or thread stretching procedure. Once I torque a barrel/nut and it shoots great I hate to un torque it, but im at a loss for whats going on at this point.

 

[Proven Gear]

Sounds like the guy knows what he is doing and is stumped by this weird occurrence. I had a barrel nitrided that had a 40-50 rounds down the the barrel. It was extremely accurate (Mark Chanlynn barrel) once I got it back from nitride it began throwing bullets out of the group- as in 8-12" out of the groups at 200 yards. I don't know what happened but I would even get some bullets that wouldn't make it to the target.

I bought a Shilen match barrel, chambered it up and it has been shooting great. I had the nitrided barrel lightly lapped and I may put it back on and see what happens. Bore scope revealed nothing out of the ordinary. Germán Salazar looked at it for me as did Shilen. Looks good, shot really bad. Just one of those enigmas we may never figure out!

Had the EXACT same thing happen with a WOA SPR stick a few years ago, was dumbfounded as I could not find anything wrong with it whatsoever, returned it to WOA and they replaced it, kept it in the white and it shot beautifully.

 

[Proven Gear]

Video of the rifle after a 20 round "seasoning" and zero. One miss in the video at 2:13 which was my fault lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nxfUbbxnPoI

 

[DHD]

Video of the rifle after a 20 round "seasoning" and zero. One miss in the video at 2:13 which was my fault lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nxfUbbxnPoI

I have some experience with 2 Rainier Ultra Match barrels in 223 (very good) and 2 in 308 (1 very good and 1 very inconsistent). I have no idea why you are getting the "shards" of copper as that is a new one on me. I would think that if you were seeing any loose jacket material you also would be seeing some pretty extensive copper fouling. Are you using a bore guide of any sort? The reason I ask is I do see brass material on the boltface from time to time and new feed ramps are sharp until they smooth out from use. If you aren't using a bore guide you may be picking some of this up from the chamber.

These barrels are listed as Shilen ratchet rifled 4 groove barrels. They do look very different inside than a standard 4 groove barrel.

Out of curiosity, how tight was the extension to upper fit? I am a big believer in using some sort of bedding between the two regardless of if it is snug or not (Robert Whitley's advice). I look at it as it cannot hurt and may well really improve the whole aggravating rifle (I have a torrid love/hate relationship with these rifles).

Obviously you have put some of these things together before, but I am focusing more on the sudden accuracy issue than the debris issue (even though they may well be the same problem). I treat these rifles and bolt actions the same in that I do not shoot them a high volume without some sort of cleaning regimen. That helps me keep an eye on what is going on in the inside of them.

 

[Proven Gear]

Extension to receiver fit is quite tight still, took the barrel off the upper, inspected the upper to make sure it wasn't cracked and torqued it back together earlier today. Chamber and extension are fully cleaned out prior to cleaning the bore, also using an AR10 bore guide. These "copper shards" look like brass bristle brush whiskers but are around 1mm long and sometimes square/round too. I soaked the bore in Kroil over night and only got out a tiny bit of fouling this morning, third patch through chamber to muzzle came out perfectly clean. I guess its back to the range to see if its fixed its self.

 

[Baddog0302]

Video of the rifle after a 20 round "seasoning" and zero. One miss in the video at 2:13 which was my fault lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nxfUbbxnPoI

NICE, were those you'll vehicles down range in the 2nd clip ??