Setting up the front and rear rest ...free recoil question

[TnTom]

I shot HP with a .223 AR in 600 MR matches so it was all with a sling. Ive taken some interest in BR using a Savage BVSS .223
I read a little about "free recoil" which is much different. When setting up the rest I have some trouble keeping the rifle "up-right" to a small degree but I'm thinking its enough to measure at 100yd.
The stock fore-end sides have have a taper inward so in the front rest the only contact with the stock is the bottom and up about 1/2" up each side.

Should I control the left right roll with the rear bag by using a bag that gets up the sides more?

Is free re-coil meant to be free to the point that the motion stops only as the enertia stops the movement reward?

If you dont shoot free recoil should the rifle be locked into the shoulder with the effort similar to say prone, or tight?

I'm finding shooting off a bench is quite different than shooting prone. I've looked at some of the higher tech rests and its cost prohibitive unless I can find one used thats has a good design.

How free is free in recoil? why isnt a very rigid bottom and side support on the front rest more effective than softer material. Isnt the idea to just keep the motion reward. If the bottom and sides of the fore end are to keep the rifle 'square" shouldn't a well fitting stock/rest be with contact full on the bottom and side or at least higher on the sides so there is NO left right tipping or motion possible?

Would the rifle stock be more effective if the fore-end didn't taper forward or toward the top. Ive never seen a top of the line stock and what the typical shape is.

Whats the best way to set up a typical BVSS factory stock and rest? What about shoulder contact? In free re-coil should the butt be into the shoulder or should the gun recoil to the shoulder? Any light shed on this will sure helpful. tom

 

[jo191145]

What are you using for a front rest now?

The BVSS stock is not as "free recoil" friendly as it could be. That does'nt mean it won't work or is a bad stock. If you install a forend stabilizer free recoil would be easier.
A forend stabilizer is basically a piece of material that is 3" wide and flat on the bottom. It connects through the swivel stud. Gives a nice flat, wide area for the gun to recoil on.
You would also need a 3" bag for whatever front rest you are using.
Midway sells/ sold one by EJS. They work. Sinclaire sells a better one for "I'm quessing" more money. If you half handy you can make your own out of wood. Just remember, friction is your enemy.

Unless its been changed the BVSS will have a 1.5lb Accutrigger. Free recoil shooters are normally using 2 oz triggers. A big difference there. You can place your thumb on the rear of the trigger quard and squeeze backwards that way. I've done it it can work but its not really free recoil at that point.

For the near future I'd recommend you forget about free recoil. Use a light grip on the rifle.
The key is use the same grip everytime. Whatever feels comfortable to you at a bench. Theres no real right or wrong. Do it everytime exactly the same.
Once your comfortable with your own style then you can try different things.

Free recoil is a nice thing. I employ it a lot. But if your entire setup is not geared towards it your better off without it.

 

[clannagael]

I have a BVSS .223 that I shoot BR/varmint matches.

I have a similar issue with the roll. I'm using a Caldwell "The Rock" front rest that I can tighten down to lightly hug the stock to help with the roll. I use my rear bag more as an elevation tool.

Having said that, I do not shoot free recoil. I shoot light grip. It's "only" a .223 so, relatively, it has hardly any recoil anyway. I find that using a light grip helps me keep a better target picture during recoil so I can reset faster. I have a decent grip with my hand, very light into my shoulder, but I use as little cheek/neck as possible. My left hand grips my rear bag. I also found a way to leverage the front sling stud to my advantage by using it to keep the stock between the front arm of the rest and the front bag. Since it's light recoil the stud doesn't dig into the bag or do any damage to it, but it snags it enough to keep it in place.

I'm not sure how I feel about free recoil. Once you get to a certain point using rests and free recoil it becomes just a trigger pulling contest. I want to keep a little bit of shooting in my shooting, if you know what I mean. To each his own, of course.

It's a lot of fun, good luck with whatever you figure out.

 

[jo191145]

All of my bullets go through the same hole - the one in the barrel.

Dang it Dave now that there is funny. I vote that best signature ever.

I can understand your misgivings about free recoil. Short range Benchrest is all about tune, windflags and bench manners. Forget about any of those three and your done.
Benchmanners does not automatically equate to free recoil. Last match I shot I said to he!! with free recoil. Wind was blowing from four different directions at a time. No time for finesse. Blast em down range as fast as possible before the condition changed seemed to work best.
To each day its own ;D

 

[deadlyswift]

I agree with Joe. Your stock isn't design to shoot free recoil. To shoot free recoil you must have a stock that is design for it, As well a caliber that can shoot free recoil. With BR stocks they are usually 3in flat on the fore arm. Not rounded as your stock is. Also they are flat on the bottom of the butt of the stock. This allows the rifle to slide straight back in the bags. However you can shoot very well with a little hold on your rifle. I have a Savage 10fcp in .308 with the HS stock I struggled with the fore arm rolling in the bags under recoil. Caused many headaches and flyers for me. I recently purchased a sinclair Ap Gen. II front rest. This rest helped a lot with my 308. I can adjust the bag to fit to the stock. It didn't fix things good enough to shoot BR, but the 308 isn't a BR round either. As well I have a 6br build in a Bill Shehane MBR stock that is design to shoot BR. It has a 3in Fore arm and is flat on the bottom. The Gen. II AP Sinclair rest is still not the best for BR but it will work very well. I shoot multiple type stocks for multiple reasons. So that is why I went with the Sinclair Gen. II AP rest. The JJ and Farley seem to be the most popular front rest. However your looking at $850 to $900 for a rest. The Sinclair Gen. II AP can be had for $386 shipped to your door. The Cadwell rock is a good rest for around $160 to $170. Myself I just needed something a little more than the Cadwell to suit my needs so I went with the Sinclair, but the Cadwell will work If that's what funds allow. Get what you need to fix your problem and stay in your budget! If nothing else shoot then shoot again! Many shoot very well with a good hold on the rifle.
Mark

 

[TnTom]

Well that helps a lot. In the back of my mind when I would be shooting I would find myself thinking somethings not right. I tried a couple of different things, when my groups were relatively consistent .3's and .4's someone said to do this and that and my groups went to .8's.
David when you are shooting your BVSS at what point along fore-end do you rest the gun. I had my best results with my rest about 4" from the end of the stock and that was one of the changes I made. I moved way back just below the barrel nut just in front of where the balance point was at. I changed a few other things so just what helped less is hard to pin point.
I do find I like holding the gun and taking my shot feels like I'm more involved without the cranking it like with a sling. I'll probably work more toward getting comfortable on the bench and getting a rest/bag that fits better.
Eye relief is something that wasn't working well when I let the gun come back. I knocked the lens out of my glasses. Never had that problem before.
Thanks again for all the in-site. There are more things to consider than I realized ...tom

 

[jo191145]

Simply put Tom, just do whatever feels natural to you. Comfortable, stay comfortable and in control.
Any man that can learn to shoot with a sling can shoot from a bench

One last tip. If you still have those swivel eyes in the stock remove them. They have no business in the bags.
I always loved that Wundhammer palm swell of the BVSS stock. It begs for a touch. The forend of the BVSS pretty much requires it tho.

 

[TnTom]

Simply put Tom, just do whatever feels natural to you. Comfortable, stay comfortable and in control.
Any man that can learn to shoot with a sling can shoot from a bench

One last tip. If you still have those swivel eyes in the stock remove them. They have no business in the bags.
I always loved that Wundhammer palm swell of the BVSS stock. It begs for a touch. The forend of the BVSS pretty much requires it tho.

I pulled the swivels shortly after I got the gun and turned up some black delrin plugs to fill the holes, Nice and smooth. Your sure right about the grip it likes gettin held onto.
I read about putting baby powder on the bags/ Ive been doing it and I like how it slicks them up.

 

[BoydAllen]

One of the biggest time and ammunition wasters that I see is trying to shoot free recoil with a rifle that is not stocked, balanced, and does not have a light enough trigger to use this technique. I have a Benchrest rifle that has all the right attributes, and the correct rest/rear bag setup, and I have varmint rifles that do not.

The most common problem that I see is rifles that are not set up on the bags so that they can slide the short distance on recoil, with low and consistent friction, without hooking something on the bag. Another is holding a rifle so lightly that a small handling error is magnified. The main thing is to try different techniques to see what a particular setup "likes", and then make note of it, and remember to use that technique for that rifle and rest.

Many times I have helped shooters get better results, by changing bag and rest positons, on trigger pull technique, and also follow through, only to see them making the same mistakes a few weeks later. I have a note pad that stays in my range kit, that I review from time to time. I think that this is a good idea.

The other big one is that except for guys that actually compete in short range Benchrest matches, one almost never sees any sort of device to look at what the wind is doing. I say device, because even sticks with surveyor's tape tied to the top are a lot better than nothing.

Another common mistake is for shooters to not be aware of barrel mirage, and how to deal with it.

As to the definition of free recoil, in competition, the term describes a technique where the rifle is not touched at all, after being returned to position after firing, during aiming (The rest controls are used.) or firing, except at the end of the recoil travel. There is no contact during aiming, and only the trigger finger touches to fire. Anything more is not, technically, free recoil. Again, for most rifles, trying to shoot this way is a waste of time, barrel steel, and ammunition.

 

[Nodak7mm]

A quick simple trick for reducing friction when using a checkered hunting forearm in a front rest is to place piece of paper inbetween the bag surface and the forearm. No mess from talcum powder & great friction reduction.

Also, I agree with the others just make a couple of "forearm stabilizers" to bolt on the forearm using the sling screw attachment point. I have made several out of delrin flat stock.. Works geat.

 

[fdshuster]

TnTom: My Savage 12BVSS (factory 243, now a 6BR) was disappointing when attempting any type of precision shooting off the bench with my Sinclair front rest, bunny ear rear bag. I believe the rifle has a high center of gravity with that laminated stock, add a somewhat heavy 'scope, like one of the Nightforce's, and it had a lot of twisting/torqueing during recoil. Am using it now with a Bell & Carlson Medalist "Tactical", that has a more friendly forend shape to ride the front bag. Still have the near vertical palm swell pistol grip on the B&C, like the Savage. I'm finding there are very few, if any, factory stocks that are user friendly for benchrest--- they just aren't designed for it. My experience with free recoil with the 12BVSS stock was very short-lived. It quickly became evident that it would not work.

 

[BoydAllen]

One does not need to shoot a rifle free recoil to get rewarding groups from the bench. The ability to shoot small comes from a multiplicity of factors.

A long time ago, I had a short action Remington that had been restocked (pillar bedded) into a single shot 40X stock, the style that is used for prone shooting. It had a Canjar Light Pull trigger that was set down to 2 oz., a 36X B&L scope, and a heavy Hart barrel,with a tight necked .222 chamber. This stock was no more free recoil friendly than your Savage, and the rifle did not shoot its best free recoil. Holding the rifle, I was able to produce groups in the .2s on a consistent basis. To do this, I used sticks with surveyor's tape to watch the wind, and loaded at the range to be able to stay in tune as the temperature changed. It was a lot of fun. Later, the barreled action was glued into a prototype EDGE stock and has produced groups in the high ones. Due to being nose heavy at the 10 /12# weight limit that I want to keep it under, it still has to be held. My old single shot Savage 112, chambered in .220 Swift, with the factory bedding (no pillars), and trigger (2 1/4#) would group around 7/16". Since then, I think that my reloading has improved and I may revisit it to see if I can better that, although I will have to take into consideration that the barreled action is now in a much better designed stock (for bench work), is pillar bedded, and has a much lighter trigger.

 

[queen_stick]

I wasted a lot of time and components trying to get my gun to shoot free recoil. It's not that I wanted it that bad, it's that I was new to BR (and I still consider myself new), and thought that it was the best approach to shooting with BR accuracy. One day I was practicing, and a fellow shooter saw me struggling to get the gun to shoot. (shooting 1k BR, and getting 15" groups on a nice calm day) One of the first things he said was "Reach up there and grab a hold of the forend." I did that, and shot a 6" group right away. I tested that theory a couple of times, and it is consistent - hold the forend and it's a hammer, let it go and it's like a shotgun. I'm sure there's a lot going on there to create those results, like vibration, the front rest/front bag, rear bag, balance, weight, hold and etc... It's a never-ending battle, the strive for accuracy. Just do what works, and don't mess with success.