Setting headspace with factory case

[xpppcbr]

hello i was wondering if headspace can be set with a factory loaded case ? i read were some gunsmiths set headspace with a real case instead of gauges. Im wondering how its done when you have a wildcat that there isnt a guage for any info on the way you do it or info on installing factory barrels on 700 rem actions using standard chambers

thanks alot
chris

 

[shortgrass]

I have not run into a wildcat where the company who made the reamer didn't make gages, too. You usually use the gages made for the 'parent' case. For the Ackley the "GO" gage becomes the "NO-GO" gage and there's a seperate gage made shorter to act as the "GO". I've got a .260 just brought to my shop yesterday because you can't close the bolt on a factory cartridge, it's not even close. Must have been chambered by one of those 'gunsmiths'!

 

[xpppcbr]

so for the 22-250 you can use the 308 guages, and for the 17 rem you could use a 223 guages?

thanks chris

 

[watercam]

I have heard this from time to time and it never quite made sense to me.For myself, I prefer a known standard - by and large I do not think unfired factory cases are. I have seen plenty of variation within a box of Lapua cases from one case to the next (by plenty I mean .002" or so in overall size measurements). Once one fires a case, one then only need bump the shoulder back .002-.003" (I full length resize every time). If you really want to mate the case and chamber as one, have custom dies made cut with the same reamer that cut your chamber (I use match grade Redding or Forster dies). I have had more than a few chambers cut with off-the-shelf reamers (by good manufactureres) to SAAMI spec, loaded ammo with factory dies (match grade) and manage to load 0.00" - 0.001" concentric cartridges that produce 0.00" - 0.001" concentric fired cases. I'd say they are all pretty much 0.00" but no one would believe it. I feel the skill of the gunsmith is ones number one consideration (I am not one).

 

[shortgrass]

so for the 22-250 you can use the 308 guages, and for the 17 rem you could use a 223 guages?

thanks chris

Can't use .308 gages for .22-250. NOT the same parent case. You need a "headspace interchangability chart". Shows what to use with what cartrige.

 

[TRECustom]

I thought that a .250 Savage headspace gage would be correct, but my interchangeablity chart only shows .22-250, .20-250, and 6mm-.250 as interchangeable. Doesn't show .250 Savage at all.

I have had chambers that would not allow the bolt to close on a go gage. If they weren't dangerous game rifles, and would close on new brass, I left them alone. I check chambers with a go gage and if the bolt closes, I put little square pieces of brass shimstock on the bolt face with light grease, to see just how much over the go gage a chamber is. Best I recall, most no-go gages are .004" to .006" over the go gage. I won't let a chamber go over go + .003". The go gage can be very important because a SAAMI std go gage is sized to permit any major factory ammo to be chambered. Be sure and remove any spring-loaded ejector when checking headspace. At best, it will muddy the feel of the gage, and at worst may mask excessive headspace.
If a bolt will close on a no-go gage, don't shoot the rifle. Doesn't matter to me if it's just .001" over. I saw a Rem 700 .270 WSM that blew a stock into 3 pieces, extruded brass, injured the shooter with shrapnel and splinters, and set the bolt locking lugs back with factory ammo. I don't know how much over no-go it was, but I just figure that no-go means exactly that.

If you don't want to mess with the go gage and shims, get both gages. Don't use factory brass or ammo as a standard.

You mentioned checking with live ammo. Don't do it if the firing pin assembly is in the bolt. I can't make myself cycle live ammo in a functional rifle in my house or in my shop, even Model 70's or Mausers, that have 3 position firing pin safeties. My nerves won't take it.

I know I may sound like an old maid, but anything that can develop 65,000 psi and can kill instantly, leaves no room for short-cuts!

Sorry if I sound preachy, but a fine rifle is a tool that should only be dangerous to whatever is in FRONT of it.

Good shooting, Tom

 

[tenring]

Listen to Tom's advice. Several years ago, I was checking loads in a 6.5-284 while it was in the cleaning cradle in my cellar. I simply wanted to see how much jam I had on a live round. Chambered it in my custom Savage, and when I closed the bolt, it discharged. It went thru a 1/2 inch cabinet, and lodged in my block cellar wall, about a foot from my furnace. My ears were ringing for a loooong time. Had it struck the furnace, my wallet would have been ringing too.

Yes, I did re-set the trigger weight of pull.

 

[rbertalotto]

This is a dicy subject......depends on who the gun is for and it's intended use.
If it's a hunting rifle, they you should use a SAMMI go/no go gauge. You want to be able to purchase ammo anywhere and have it fit.

If it's a target rifle and the customer is a seasoned reloader, I like to have three empty cases of the brand the customer will be using. I want them full length sized on his reloading die. I take these cases and fill them with lead and use them as my Headspace gauges. The lead stops the case from crushing and giving me a false reading. In this way the customer only needs to full length size his new brass or fired brass for a perfect zero headspace fit.

ALL headspace checking should be done with the firing pin and any plunger ejector removed. These two devices will give you a false reading.

 

[therifler]

when you chamber a rifle for a particular cartridge savage or otherwise . the person chambering should be fully aware of the consequences if is not completed correctly. it is a wonderful accomplishment to be able to a rebarrel yourself ,however it is not for evryone. this area is probably one the most dangerous aspects of rifle smithing and could cause you or bystanders serious injury if not completed correctly .proceed with extreme caution and lots of knowledge.
The Rifler

 

[TRECustom]

Roy B, sounds like a workable system for an experienced shooter and reloader, but I would still be concerned about the liability aspect of not verifying (and documenting) every chamber with an industry standard headspace gage. I have checked headspace for family members and friends, and the only time I don't document the results is when whoever I'm doing it for is present and sees the bolt handle position with the gage in the chamber. If they're not there to witness the test, then I record the caliber, serial #, and describe the bolt handle position and feel on the gage. And this is for a small circle of friends and family! If I have rebarreled a rifle for a friend or family member or myself, I always record the result of the headspace test, and sometimes take a photo of the bolt handle position, whether they're there or not. Probably sounds excessive to most people, but I like pictures of projects in progress anyway, so it's easy to include the headspacing tests.

Just my opinion.

By the way, thanks very much for reminding everyone to also remove the firing pin assembly while headspacing. I shouldn't have taken that for granted!

tenring, I don't like to reflect on how I got so paranoid about handling live ammo in a rifle at home, but it was very similar to your experience. I also was very very lucky. Never again! Bad Juju !!!

Good thread, xp. Tom

 

[Rustystud]

A smart man uses Go and NoGo gauges made of steel, from the same manufacture. This complies with SAAMI and the only professional liability companies that cover gunsmithing or manufacturing in America. Oh, I forgot Savage shooters who change their barrels don't usually have a FFL, or professional liability insurance. Doing a barrel change on your personal gun is fine but sell that gun to someone else and it not be headspaced correctly and they have a catostrophic event occure. You land in jail and your family with no inheritance. No thanks It is easier to do it right use the proper gauges.
Nat Lambeth

 

[fdshuster]

When my gunsmith does a chambering for me he does a test firing with one round, and keeps that empty fired case with his records for the work. He will not release a rifle to the customer without first doing the test firing.

 

[therifler]

Fds, your smith has a wise procedure. you cannot be to safe when headspacing i also agree with Rustystud headspace gages are a sound method. T.R.

 

[tunered]

A smart man uses Go and NoGo gauges made of steel, from the same manufacture. This complies with SAAMI and the only professional liability companies that cover gunsmithing or manufacturing in America. Oh, I forgot Savage shooters who change their barrels don't usually have a FFL, or professional liability insurance. Doing a barrel change on your personal gun is fine but sell that gun to someone else and it not be headspaced correctly and they have a catostrophic event occure. You land in jail and your family with no inheritance. No thanks It is easier to do it right use the proper gauges.
Nat Lambeth

Rusty, Not doughting your statement but, I have seen on Gunbroker some dealers say that their rifles are not shot or inspected in any way so in a way its buyer beware, so i dont really see how a non dealer could be responsible for a firearm that he sold, unless it is brand new i think it is buyer beware. ed