Setting a Tuner one method used by a lot of SR BR group shooters

[Tim Singleton]

This article originally appeared in precision rifleman by one of our newest Hall of Fame members
I hope he doesn’t mind my sharing it. This is the method a lot of folks use
Not sure anyone can explain how or why it works or if they care to know we just see it on the target and it is repeatable
The intention is to find the widest window for that load where a full 180degree turn in the tuner has no effect on the bullet impact point. Fire one shot move it 180 degree fire a second shot at the same aim point and that bullet goes in the hole with the first one

 

[afrench]

Thanks, Tim.

 

[Bill Norris]

Good read. Thanks Tim.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I had a thread yesterday about a 1k target I was sent using a similar method. Its interesting.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

When moving any tuner, one question that should always have a clear answer is, why do I move it in the respective amounts that we choose to use. We should only move it with a known and anticipated result. Anything else is random and with random movement, I think we can all agree that we should expect random results. Even if 180° is appropriate for the tuner in the article(it's not), different tuners, different weights and thread pitches, along with different relative stiffness of individual barrels play a role in this. This is exactly why I'm careful to only give instruction for my own tuner designs. There can not be blanket statements for all tuners.

I reply to tuner threads because there is so much confusion and just plain wrong information about how to properly go about using them. We need less confusing, not more. Sometimes it's like people wish there was a different approach but that is not really the case. IMO, there are two ways. One is to set it and forget it, changing powder charge or other load parameters to maintain tune. The other is to move the tuner in known values to achieve the same. Establishing those values is paramount with each tuner design and even bbl stiffness, to some degree. They really are easy to use but randomly moving one or moving in big increments is a terrible way to establish mark values and mostly leaves people scratching their head, especially when tune goes away. It's not at all going out on a limb to say that being very methodical is the best way to establish mark values and I think we can all agree with that simple statement.

 

[Ccrider]

When moving any tuner, one question that should always have a clear answer is, why do I move it in the respective amounts that we choose to use. We should only move it with a known and anticipated result. Anything else is random and with random movement, I think we can all agree that we should expect random results. Even if 180° is appropriate for the tuner in the article(it's not), different tuners, different weights and thread pitches, along with different relative stiffness of individual barrels play a role in this. This is exactly why I'm careful to only give instruction for my own tuner designs. There can not be blanket statements for all tuners.

I reply to tuner threads because there is so much confusion and just plain wrong information about how to properly go about using them. We need less confusing, not more. Sometimes it's like people wish there was a different approach but that is not really the case. IMO, there are two ways. One is to set it and forget it, changing powder charge or other load parameters to maintain tune. The other is to move the tuner in known values to achieve the same. Establishing those values is paramount with each tuner design and even bbl stiffness, to some degree. They really are easy to use but randomly moving one or moving in big increments is a terrible way to establish mark values and mostly leaves people scratching their head, especially when tune goes away. It's not at all going out on a limb to say that being very methodical is the best way to establish mark values and I think we can all agree with that simple statement.

Was hoping you would respond Mike. Have you tried this method with your tuner? Did the groups open and close as projected?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Was hoping you would respond Mike. Have you tried this method with your tuner? Did the groups open and close as projected?

Not much I haven't tried with mine and several others. Yes, it dates back a while that I tested this, back when Gene was living. The main reason for trying it though was because the instructions with one of two different tuners had something similar included. It was clear that it changed group shape and size and yes, you could stumble upon a spot where it shot small. That wasn't the problem. The problem was, where do I go from here when tune changes. Those instructions, for both unnamed tuners were not anywhere close to right. So, I drug out a depth mic and started moving it in .001 increments. Low and behold, it became predictable and repeatable. The group shapes consistently repeated with .001 increments, from completely in tune, to completely out..then started coming back into tune. The mark values for both different in terms of group shape between those two tuners and different still than mine or the TSI tuner tested later, but all worked and worked similarly.

Here's an interesting story from a few years ago using a TSI tuner on a gun I had just bought. Mounted the scope and loaded ammo the night before the match. Any tuner, used properly, should give similar results. Back then, his tuners didn't have numbers on them yet.

Tuner story...

I posted this story on another site but thought others may find it interesting and am posting here, too. The story is based on a rifle I bought last year, which had another maker's tuner on it when I got it. This tuner uses a slightly smaller thread diameter than mine, so rather than cutting an...

forum.accurateshooter.com

 

[JFrank]

I’m sorry , I don’t see a problem with the LR ladder system to find a couple settings on the tuner to explore, and I don’t see a problem with the original article and the apparent tune setting at the bottom of the sine wave being the preverbal “sweet spot”

 

[Tim Singleton]

No one is saying don't adjust in small increments thru the day if needed

Just saying we want to find a starting place with a wide window

 

[Bill Norris]

I normally adjust in the larger increments to find the most promising window and then tune within that range to nail down the best group.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

No one is saying don't adjust in small increments thru the day if needed

Just saying we want to find a starting place with a wide window

I'm gonna ask a question and try my best to not sound like I want to argue...I don't. In my first post I alluded to this.

Why 180°? Why not some other amount? IMO, there should be a logical reason, er methodology.

 

[Tim Singleton]

I'm gonna ask a question and try my best to not sound like I want to argue...I don't. In my first post I alluded to this.

Why 180°? Why not some other amount? IMO, there should be a logical reason, er methodology.

I've tried a lot of different increments
180d or half a turn is the largest movement I have found that my tuner will swallow and stick two in same hole

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I've tried a lot of different increments
180d or half a turn is the largest movement I have found that my tuner will swallow and stick two in same hole

Ok. With or without mentioning the tuner brand, what is the thread pitch and how many marks in a full revolution? Oh, and tuner weight will be helpful.

 

[Tim Singleton]

Ok. With or without mentioning the tuner brand, what is the thread pitch and how many marks in a full revolution? Oh, and tuner weight will be helpful.

4oz 32tpi
Buky and Harris
Harris is similar to Buky

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

4oz 32tpi
Buky and Harris
Harris is similar to Buky

Are you up for a test? I'll predict tuner setting and group shapes as best I can. There are variables but I'm pretty confident about it. About 4 three shot groups at 100, using your best and widest setting for a starting point. That should be verified before starting to make sure it dots up to start. Lets use the Bukys, if that's ok. I'm more familiar with it and I don't fully trust a jam nut setup. Oh, how many marks again...32 or are they 28. I don't remember.?

 

[Tim Singleton]

Are you up for a test? I'll predict tuner setting and group shapes as best I can. There are variables but I'm pretty confident about it. About 4 three shot groups at 100, using your best and widest setting for a starting point. That should be verified before starting to make sure it dots up to start. Lets use the Bukys, if that's ok. I'm more familiar with it and I don't fully trust a jam nut setup. Oh, how many marks again...32 or are they 28. I don't remember.?

I'm pretty happy with my system right now
Any practice time I have the next couple weeks will be getting ready for NC state match

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I'm pretty happy with my system right now
Any practice time I have the next couple weeks will be getting ready for NC state match

Well, good luck. I'm sure you'll do well. Give em heck buddy!

 

[Tim Singleton]

Well, good luck. I'm sure you'll do well. Give em heck buddy!

Thanks, Mike
its a tough crowd for sure!!

 

[jcline]

Some drive Ford , Some drive Chevy. They both will get you where you are going most of the time. The only thing I can say about a tuner is, if you are scared to turn it in the middle of a match, DO NOT GET ONE ON YOUR GUN! If you know how to use one, you will have better results if you go preloaded to a match. Most say small turns, I will tell you on a Goodling/ Long tuner it takes a mark or two to make a difference. I suggest listening to someone who can show up at a match and SHOW you how a tuner will make you better. There are some who can "tell you" but can't seem to show you in their results.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Some drive Ford , Some drive Chevy. They both will get you where you are going most of the time. The only thing I can say about a tuner is, if you are scared to turn it in the middle of a match, DO NOT GET ONE ON YOUR GUN! If you know how to use one, you will have better results if you go preloaded to a match. Most say small turns, I will tell you on a Goodling/ Long tuner it takes a mark or two to make a difference. I suggest listening to someone who can show up at a match and SHOW you how a tuner will make you better. There are some who can "tell you" but can't seem to show you in their results.

Lol! Excuse the mess but that deserved a reply. Terrible pics as it's been raining. I think my phone camera lens was partially fogged up.