Separating LC brass by year?

[IA_shooter]

Anybody separating LC brass by headstamp year for the best precision possible? I've got thousands of prepped LC brass and started separating some tonight by year to see if I can tighten up groups even better. Waste of time or? Let's hear your thoughts on this guys. I've got a Savage 12FV in 223 that I put into an AccuStock and I'm getting groups like the pic I'm including and just for fun, and because I can, I want to see if I can tighten it up even more. Maybe I just have too much time on my hands.

 

[Prose]

If you are seeking ultimate precision sorting is necessary. Search this forum on the subject there are some posts with specific water capacities and weights.

 

[people]

Yeah the search is going to be the best. Basically they have many lines producing ammunition at the same time so year does not mean much.

 

[riflewoman]

If you want the ultimate in precision, then I might suggest switching to Lapua brass and perhaps a better barrel than the factory tube.

 

[retired]

while it helps, you then have to weight sort.
much better to start with some quality brass....even it can benefit from a weight sort.

 

[Metal God]

Your best bet is to check case volume by measuring the amount of water each case holds by weight . These need to all be fire formed from the same chamber and trimmed to the same length first .

I don't have a 223 bolt gun but do shoot almost exclusively LC brass in my 308 bolt guns . I have done tests with a checking case volume differences in LC-09 , 10 , 12LR & 14 Here are the cliff notes . I tested ten random cases from 250ct lots


LC-09
avg case weight 185.4gr ES=1.9gr
avg water volume 54.9gr ES=.7gr

LC-10
avg case weight 184.6gr ES=2.9gr
avg water volume 54.8gr ES=.6gr

LC-12lr
avg case weight 184.4gr ES=1.4gr
avg water volume 55gr ES=.8gr

LC-14
avg case weight 183.5gr ES=2.2gr
avg water volume 55.1gr ES=1.2gr

I concluded that the LC-09 & 10 were pretty much the same brass and can be loaded interchangeably . I how ever concluded that although the LC-12 & 14 had pretty much the same water volume they were not the same because the 12lr cases are held to a higher standard and I've confirmed this by measuring neck wall thickness as well as being able to load almost 2 full grains more of powder in the LC-12lr cases with no pressure signs that do show up in the LC14 cases ( sticky bolt lefts ) I later concluded that the LC-14 cases are actually softer then the LC-12 cases and expand fully with less spring back resulting in those sticky bolts at a 1.8gr lesser charge using all the same components .

Based on all that as well as other things I've experienced using LC cases ( in 308 ) I'd recommend separating by year if looking for best accuracy . I'd also note that just because a particular charge does not show high pressure signs in one year does not mean it won't in another .

Not sure if you do but proper annealing can go a long way for consistent bullet hold and release .

I'll have to say though that's a pretty nice 10 shot group and tightening that up may very well need some Lapua brass . This is my 10 shot group with an AR

 

[dolek]

If you are seeking ultimate precision sorting is necessary. Search this forum on the subject there are some posts with specific water capacities and weights.

If you read the original post...He mentions thousands of prepped cases,Fun, and spare time...no mention of wanting a new barrel or brass.

 

[USMCDOC]

If you want the ultimate in precision, then I might suggest switching to Lapua brass and perhaps a better barrel than the factory tube.

Nah.. i don't think that is necessary with LC brass..

Anybody separating LC brass by headstamp year for the best precision possible? I've got thousands of prepped LC brass and started separating some tonight by year to see if I can tighten up groups even better. Waste of time or? Let's hear your thoughts on this guys. I've got a Savage 12FV in 223 that I put into an AccuStock and I'm getting groups like the pic I'm including and just for fun, and because I can, I want to see if I can tighten it up even more. Maybe I just have too much time on my hands.

OP'er

If you take your LC brass.. separate it by year.. then sort it by weight.. What i do is then separate it by weight again, meaning.. once you have it in groups of say 95, 96, 97 grain groups (just using the numbers as a guide).. then within that say 97 grain group, i would separate the brass from the heaviest to the lightest and also shoot it in that order.. meaning, separate starting with 97.98 and work your way down to 97.00 then do the same with the 96 grain group and so forth.. it does work.. i know

also. what do you mean by prepped.. what steps did you take to prep them.. also.. it is a waste of time to sort the brass till it is all prepped too..

 

[Metal God]

Case weight has no effect on case volume . I've done enough weighing of cases and there water volume to conclude separating cases by weight only will do nothing for the consistency of your loads . The only time I've seen a direct correlation is when there is a 10+ grain difference . One or two grain differences can be simply do to how thick the extractor rim is or the shape and depth of the extractor groove is from manufacture to manufacture .

If you look about a third of the way down this page you will see some case weight to water volume comparisons that clearly show what I'm talking about
http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

 

[jepp2]

Waste of time or? Let's hear your thoughts on this guys.

A straight sort by year will not gain you much. I would suggest changing to Lapua as mentioned. The neck thickness variation is much less than the LC. If you intend to stick with your LC, I would cull out those having the greatest variation in neck thickness. But there are a lot of other things I would tackle first before focusing on your brass.

You group looks great, but I can't believe with a bolt gun you are going to run through that much brass.

 

[alb]

There are many machines at LCAAP, so I wouldn't think that sorting by year is going to net anything.

 

[Steffen Bunde]

FWIW, I shoot LC 308 and 223 brass in my palma guns. I sort by year and weight. I choose to spend the extra time it takes to prep LC and use the money on a good barrel.

 

[IA_shooter]

If you read the original post...He mentions thousands of prepped cases,Fun, and spare time...no mention of wanting a new barrel or brass.

You are correct. I'm not looking to try and get record breaking performance out of a factory Savage action/barrel obviously. I was just curious to know if some people had gone down this road with any noticeable/measurable results concerning LC brass specifically in 223. I have been pleasantly surprised this rifle is shooting as good as it is with a just little load development so far so I'm going to see how far I can push it.......because I can.

On a side note, that group was shot on a day that had perfect shooting conditions. Barely a breath of a breeze,etc. Went out and shot a 10 shot group a few days later with the same gun/load that opened up to just under 3/4" but the wind was 5-7 or 8 mph quartering so I expected a slight opening of the group regardless.

I've got plenty of time on my hands right now as I'm on seasonal lay-off and I love my shooting hobby. I've done weight separation of brass in the past with Lapua 243 cases. I've pointed bullets and separated them by weight and bearing surface, etc. Not too new to this whole precision process. A few years ago I built a semi-custom Savage 243 with a 28" bull barrel. I had that rifle shooting pretty close to 1/4" MOA consistently. Even took it to the one and only F-Class shoot I've ever gone to in MN back then and if it hadn't been for one bump-fire shot I screwed up on, I would have likely tied for 2nd place in that shoot. But I proved to myself I could hang with the best of them, even as a rookie.

Since I do have the time to kill and this is a hobby I love, I will be using 100 pcs of LC10 brass separated by weight and will painstakingly prep them/load them just to see how good I can get them to shoot. Will keep that batch separate and probably get them annealed with my buddy's annealer after this round of firing on them and just neck size them next time around.

Thanks for the replies guys. Y'all have fun shooting........I know I do.

Going out today to shoot this load @ 300 yards with this target just to see how well it does at some distance. X-ring is 1", 10-ring is 2", 9-ring is 4", etc, etc.

 

[XTR]

Someone here in an old post showed that there was about a 70% correlation between volume and weight with 223 brass, so if you believe you need to sort then sorting by weight will be helpful; however, it may be helpful to understand what shooting discipline you plan to use this brass.

When I was shooting LC in my F-TR 223 unsorted LC would typically clean an F class target with ~75% x counts at 300 and 500. At 600 yards the X counts drop a little, and the cleans are not so common due to wind, but the precision was still under ½ MOA.

If you have time to sort them, and to keep them sorted then go for it, it can't hurt and might help. Then again, if you don't have time, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

Anybody separating LC brass by headstamp year for the best precision possible? I've got thousands of prepped LC brass and started separating some tonight by year to see if I can tighten up groups even better. Waste of time or? Let's hear your thoughts on this guys. I've got a Savage 12FV in 223 that I put into an AccuStock and I'm getting groups like the pic I'm including and just for fun, and because I can, I want to see if I can tighten it up even more. Maybe I just have too much time on my hands.

Nice Group, I've been down that road back in the 80's and with what's available on the market today (Lapua, Peterson, Norma, Nosler, etc...) I think you'd be better served in getting some known good Lapua brass & realizing the full potential IMO. -Again, Good Shooting !!

 

[Depart123]

Case weight has no effect on case volume . I've done enough weighing of cases and there water volume to conclude separating cases by weight only will do nothing for the consistency of your loads . The only time I've seen a direct correlation is when there is a 10+ grain difference . One or two grain differences can be simply do to how thick the extractor rim is or the shape and depth of the extractor groove is from manufacture to manufacture .

If you look about a third of the way down this page you will see some case weight to water volume comparisons that clearly show what I'm talking about
http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

I would like to know if you've done comparisons of cases fired in the same chamber. Even then, given the elastic nature of brass, I'm not sure a cases true volume can be measured exactly. It's ultimate volume is only realized when it expands to fill the chamber. I'm not doubting your finds at all, just wondering if the method has inherent error.

I do agree generally that case weight has no correlation to volume. However, among cases of the same construction (same make) then weight would be more of an indicator.

To the OP, in my experience sorting by weight has made a difference. LC brass can vary by more than 6 grains. As far as I can tell, this has nothing to do with year stamp, but depends on the paticular die or machine it was made on.

 

[Metal God]

I would like to know if you've done comparisons of cases fired in the same chamber.

Yes all the cases I weighed in my post above were fire formed out of the same chamber . If you look at the LC-10 cases compared to the LC-14 cases you will see even though the 10's had almost a 3gr difference in weight From heaviest to lightest they were the most consistent in case volume with only a .6gr difference from heaviest to lightest . I'm currently using the LC-10 cases in my new Ruger PR .

While the LC-14 cases had less case weight variance but more case volume variance . A 1.2gr difference in case volume is pretty big I never did do a SD calculation but still have the data for each case weighed so I could if you guys would like .

 

[forsyth793]

Anybody separating LC brass by headstamp year for the best precision possible? I've got thousands of prepped LC brass and started separating some tonight by year to see if I can tighten up groups even better. Waste of time or? Let's hear your thoughts on this guys. I've got a Savage 12FV in 223 that I put into an AccuStock and I'm getting groups like the pic I'm including and just for fun, and because I can, I want to see if I can tighten it up even more. Maybe I just have too much time on my hands.

It looks to me you need to continue doing exactly whatever you are doing

 

[Shynloco]

If you want the ultimate in precision, then I might suggest switching to Lapua brass and perhaps a better barrel than the factory tube.

Do what riflewoman wrote. I'd switch to Lapua which is far more consistent in brass rather than testing the LC brass any further. I've personally been down that road before and Lapua brass is better quality which results in better and more consistent groups. But I will say your groups look great especially considering it came via LC Brass and not Lapua. I only use LC brass anymore in my gas guns as they stand up to the beating of a gas gun far better than Lapua.

Alex

 

[msinc]

Best thing I can tell you is to sort out the same ones that you shot that group with!!! Nothing wrong with that group. That said, I sort by year, but I did it for a different reason than you are asking about. I had like 30,000 cases and at one point was going to prep and sell them. I sts cleaned them all and sorted them by year because that is the way most guys want to buy them.
In my own testing just going by year was inconclusive. I shot some really nice bug holes with different year unsorted brass and I shot some terrible groups with lots of tricks performed and all sorted out cases. Just the opposite of what I was hoping for. I still sort by year though.