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Selecting my bullet (consumables)... initial 308 WIN load

I do not believe in just changing a primer, testing one load and calling one better than the other.
if you want to test a primer, you have to work up a load with it , plain and simple.
when you have worked up a best load for each set a variables, yes test the best against the best.
I only change primers if I cannot hit my accuracy goal with a fed primer. say 6 dasher with rl15 works best with cci450.

What process did you follow in selecting your primer? My circle of shooters are using CCI BR2/Lapua brass... would you have a reference source/guide I could review... thanks!
 
I DO NOT THINK THAT IS CORRECT
in lots of applications
ONE PRIMER IS BETTER THAN ANOTHER.
the 6 dasher with rl15/cci450 is a classic example.
I use 450's in 6br and 6.5 x 47 as well....however, I never used them in small primer 308. I get your point. When comparing SD and accuracy as already stated, have seen big differences. Have developed plenty of competition loads over the last 50 plus years of shooting.
 
well lets try this once more
you said
"I don’t think anyone is saying one primer is better then another."

then you say to test in you own rifle.....
TOO DETERMINE IF ONE PRIMER IS ACTUALLY BETTER THAN ANOTHER.
maybe you should read what you write.


That’s why a person would test their own individual rifle YOU ARE PREDETERMINING I AM NOT.
 
well lets try this once more
you said
"I don’t think anyone is saying one primer is better then another."

then you say to test in you own rifle.....
TOO DETERMINE IF ONE PRIMER IS ACTUALLY BETTER THAN ANOTHER.
maybe you should read what you write.
Yes you are correct, there is a person saying one primer is better then another- YOU ARE .
I didn’t see that because you were on ignore.
I personally test in MY rifle to determine which primer outperforms the other for my particular load. I am NOT saying one will automatically be the best primer in YOUR load only a fool would say that.
Now if we are done with the childish BS I’ll place you back on ignore.
 
please put me back on ignore.
you have a problem with simple English.
yes one primer was better as it was tested and proven.
so your statement is still wrong,
ONE PRIMER WAS/IS BETTER.

Yes you are correct, there is a person saying one primer is better then another- YOU ARE .
I didn’t see that because you were on ignore.
I personally test in MY rifle to determine which primer outperforms the other for my particular load. I am NOT saying one will automatically be the best primer in YOUR load only a fool would say that.
Now if we are done with the childish BS I’ll place you back on ignore.
 
Ned, for that particular load (168gr/H4895), what primer choice did you use? I’m favoring 168 for the higher velocity (similar BC)... this summer will allow shooting for fun at 1100 yards... hoping the slightly faster load will support. Appreciate your note.

I typically use Fed 205s for everything. I have had very good results with those across a range of different .223 Rem and .308 Win loads (in Lapua Palma brass). As I noted above, the 168 Hybrid has noticeably a higher than average BC for its weight. For that reason, you can actually push it fast enough to make up for, or even surpass, the BC deficit as compared to the next heavier (higher BC) weight class of .30 cal bullets. In my hands, there is a very nice node with the 168s in a 30" barreled rifle at ~2900 fps using H4895, Fed 205s, and Lapua Palma brass. I've used that load/rifle with excellent results in some F-TR matches this year. In fairness, it's not enough to put you on an equal footing at 1000 yd with someone shooting a good 200.20X bullet load, but it should compare favorably with slower (i.e. ~2750 fps) loads in a similar rifle setup using bullets in the 185 gr weight class.

One important factor to be aware of when comparing different primers is that they can have noticeably different brisance, and therefore can sometimes generate noticeably different velocities with an otherwise identical load. Simply switching out primers underneath a load that was specifically optimized with just a single primer, and then directly comparing groups may not tell the whole story. For example, a different primer that gives 20 to 30 fps greater velocity (or more) with an otherwise identical load may well put you out of the accuracy "node", and cause the groups to become larger. For that reason, simply comparing the same load with different primers using group size as the readout can potentially give the mistaken impression that one primer is noticeably better than another. However, if you actually compare loads that have been specifically tuned with each different primer, you should have a better idea of which primer is really optimal for a given setup. Unfortunately, tuning several different loads with different primers can be a very laborious undertaking, consuming large quantities of reloading components, and putting a lot of rounds down a barrel. Because they can have different brisance, one of the things that testing different primers is attempting to achieve is to optimize combustion and barrel harmonics with a given powder/cartridge/bullet weight/etc. For that reason, some people also simply test different primers underneath the same load and look for the lowest ES/SD, paying less attention to the groups for the reasons I mentioned above. Regardless of how you carry out the testing process, trying different primers can sometimes have a big impact on how forgiving and well-tuned a specific load is, especially if consistently achieving suitably low ES/SD with one brand of primer is problematic or seemingly impossible.
 
I want to thank you Ned for your very enlightening contribution, which solves the problem I've been having with primer testing. I've been doing it all wrong it seems, testing for group size instead of ES/DS consistency.

Makes perfect sense, find the right primer for optimum combustion efficiency, and then fine tune the load. I love this sport more for its complexity and being mentally challenging than the simple relaxation it gives me while drilling holes in paper.

The brain trust to be found here is just incredible!
 
I want to thank you Ned for your very enlightening contribution, which solves the problem I've been having with primer testing. I've been doing it all wrong it seems, testing for group size instead of ES/DS consistency.

Makes perfect sense, find the right primer for optimum combustion efficiency, and then fine tune the load. I love this sport more for its complexity and being mentally challenging than the simple relaxation it gives me while drilling holes in paper.

The brain trust to be found here is just incredible!

I'm not sure I would call any testing approach "wrong" per se, but I generally want to be comparing apples to apples. Whether it's testing different primers, powders, brass, or bullets, it's a good idea to be sure the test approach doesn't end up comparing one load that's fully optimized to one that might be well outside of the optimal window. If both loads are as solid as you can make them (precision-wise), then you're comparing apples to apples. Obviously, the downside to that kind of an approach is that when taken to extreme, it can mean lots of time/effort and lots of rounds.

In the case of primer testing, it may be that if switching the primer causes a change in a given load, the change isn't sufficient put that load way out of the optimal window. In that event, both grouping and/or ES/SD values can be useful readouts (i.e. compare apples to apples). It is usually fairly straightforward to start out with a minimal number of identically loaded rounds that differ only in the primer, one set of which is the optimized load to which all the others will be compared, just to make the preliminary determination whether simply changing the primer is enough to throw the load out of the window. If necessary, the load can always be re-optimized with any of the new test primers, although I would go to that length unless it was necessary.
 
I'm not sure I would call any testing approach "wrong" per se, but I generally want to be comparing apples to apples. Whether it's testing different primers, powders, brass, or bullets, it's a good idea to be sure the test approach doesn't end up comparing one load that's fully optimized to one that might be well outside of the optimal window. If both loads are as solid as you can make them (precision-wise), then you're comparing apples to apples. Obviously, the downside to that kind of an approach is that when taken to extreme, it can mean lots of time/effort and lots of rounds.

In the case of primer testing, it may be that if switching the primer causes a change in a given load, the change isn't sufficient put that load way out of the optimal window. In that event, both grouping and/or ES/SD values can be useful readouts (i.e. compare apples to apples). It is usually fairly straightforward to start out with a minimal number of identically loaded rounds that differ only in the primer, one set of which is the optimized load to which all the others will be compared, just to make the preliminary determination whether simply changing the primer is enough to throw the load out of the window. If necessary, the load can always be re-optimized with any of the new test primers, although I would go to that length unless it was necessary.
Good reply Ned! I think most serious competition shooters would do an apples to apples comparison. When we find the velocity, ES/SD, and accuracy we are looking for...the goal has been met. Some may spend more time doing that than others. Hope OP has gotten answers that can help.
 
Did my seating depth test for both 308 and 223. Going with COAL of 2.90 for the Sierra 175 TMK and 2.30 for the 69 TMK in 223. Powder will try from 42-45 grains by 0.5 for 308, and from 23-24 grains N140 with 223. Here is the target. Unfortunately I had to rush at the end and had a hot barrel in 308, but capped it off with a second factory grouping to compare with cold, since I knew she was hot. Could hold hand on it, but barely. Any insights appreciated!
 

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Ned, I’m about to give the 168 Hybrids a try in my Palma gun. Any suggestions on jump/jam for this bullet? I will do a test of various jump/jam, but sometimes a bullet gets a reputation for liking a certain sweet spot in many rifles. Thanks




I typically use Fed 205s for everything. I have had very good results with those across a range of different .223 Rem and .308 Win loads (in Lapua Palma brass). As I noted above, the 168 Hybrid has noticeably a higher than average BC for its weight. For that reason, you can actually push it fast enough to make up for, or even surpass, the BC deficit as compared to the next heavier (higher BC) weight class of .30 cal bullets. In my hands, there is a very nice node with the 168s in a 30" barreled rifle at ~2900 fps using H4895, Fed 205s, and Lapua Palma brass. I've used that load/rifle with excellent results in some F-TR matches this year. In fairness, it's not enough to put you on an equal footing at 1000 yd with someone shooting a good 200.20X bullet load, but it should compare favorably with slower (i.e. ~2750 fps) loads in a similar rifle setup using bullets in the 185 gr weight class.

One important factor to be aware of when comparing different primers is that they can have noticeably different brisance, and therefore can sometimes generate noticeably different velocities with an otherwise identical load. Simply switching out primers underneath a load that was specifically optimized with just a single primer, and then directly comparing groups may not tell the whole story. For example, a different primer that gives 20 to 30 fps greater velocity (or more) with an otherwise identical load may well put you out of the accuracy "node", and cause the groups to become larger. For that reason, simply comparing the same load with different primers using group size as the readout can potentially give the mistaken impression that one primer is noticeably better than another. However, if you actually compare loads that have been specifically tuned with each different primer, you should have a better idea of which primer is really optimal for a given setup. Unfortunately, tuning several different loads with different primers can be a very laborious undertaking, consuming large quantities of reloading components, and putting a lot of rounds down a barrel. Because they can have different brisance, one of the things that testing different primers is attempting to achieve is to optimize combustion and barrel harmonics with a given powder/cartridge/bullet weight/etc. For that reason, some people also simply test different primers underneath the same load and look for the lowest ES/SD, paying less attention to the groups for the reasons I mentioned above. Regardless of how you carry out the testing process, trying different primers can sometimes have a big impact on how forgiving and well-tuned a specific load is, especially if consistently achieving suitably low ES/SD with one brand of primer is problematic or seemingly impossible.[/QUOT
 
Ned, I’m about to give the 168 Hybrids a try in my Palma gun. Any suggestions on jump/jam for this bullet? I will do a test of various jump/jam, but sometimes a bullet gets a reputation for liking a certain sweet spot in many rifles. Thanks

In my hands, the 168 Hybrids seem to like somewhere right around .012" off the lands in rifles with 28" and 30" 5R barrels. The 168s in these two rifles were loaded in Palma brass over H4895 at ~2825 and 2905 fps, respectively. I have not tested the 168s seated into the lands, I rarely do that when I like what I'm seeing with jumped bullets.
 
In my hands, the 168 Hybrids seem to like somewhere right around .012" off the lands in rifles with 28" and 30" 5R barrels. The 168s in these two rifles were loaded in Palma brass over H4895 at ~2825 and 2905 fps, respectively. I have not tested the 168s seated into the lands, I rarely do that when I like what I'm seeing with jumped bullets.
Ok thanks
 

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