Seating die question.....need input.

[bobinpa]

I have always used Redding competition seating dies. They have always given me good results and consistent seating depth. But I recently bought a new rifle in a new to me cartridge and I thought I would try some Whidden dies. I can't get them to seat bullets consistently. Before I go any further, I AM NOT INSULTING WHIDDEN DIES IN ANY WAY.

When I use my Redding comp seater, I can get seating depths within .002 from one round to the next (which I feel is acceptable considering I don't sort my bullets). I feel there can be that much variation in bullets alone. I use them for my 6.5-284, 6.5-47L, 300 WSM plus others and I don't have any real troubles.

The new cartridge is a 6.5-300SAUM. Redding doesn't make a 6.5-300SAUM die to my knowledge and I always wanted to try Whidden dies so this was my opportunity. The best I am getting is .005 - .015 variation from one round to the next. I have played with this for 2 evenings. I have followed the directions with the dies to the letter, which took about 1 minute. Very basic, common sense type of stuff here so what the heck am I missing??????

I guess I should add that I am using an RCBS rockchucker press. I thread the die in the top until it touches the ram when it is all the way up. I then turn it in about 2 more turns. (I have also tried 1 additional turn in and 3-4 additional turns in, just for kicks. Same result.) I back the seater stem out an inch or so and insert a dummy round in the press. I raise the dummy round all the way up then turn the seating stem in until it touches the bullet and stops. I adjust the stem to the seating depth I want and then start loading. In 10 rounds I will have seating depths all over the place. Up to .015 difference. I have tried Hornady AMAXs and SMKs. I check my seating depth with a Sinclair "nut" comparator and a Starret caliper.

Someone please tell me what I am missing......... Any help would be appreciated!!!!!!!!

 

[Dusty Stevens]

2 things common to cause that problem- compressed load or seater stem sticking on the bullet and popping it loose on the downstroke. Also those nuts are notorious for making folks pull hair out trying to get a repeatable number

 

[Lapua40X]

those nuts are notorious for making folks pull hair out trying to get a repeatable number

+1

 

[Dos XX]

VLD stem needed? Call them tomorrow.

 

[/VH]

Bob,

If the problem is not as mentioned above; the seater stem sticking or the bullet meplat bottoming in the seater stem or your neck tension is too "light" to hold the bullet firmly, then:

My guess is; your seating force is excessive due to one or more of the following.

1. Seating into new unsized (need to be expanded) case mouths.
2. Burr in case mouth.
3. Neck sized down too much.
4. Work hardened brass.
5. Significant powder compression.

 

[Mozella]

I get identical results with my two seating die brands, both micrometer types. My Redding 6mm BR die holds a couple of thou from one round to the next. My similar .223 Rem Forster seating die varies all over the place. My case prep is identical so I doubt if it's neck tension too high or too low. It happens with VLD bullets and "normal" ones too and there is no indication that the seater stem is the problem.

I too have fiddled around trying to solve the problem, called the factory, consulted with local gurus, etc. The process isn't rocket surgery and should be pretty simple to understand and diagnose. Yet, the Redding is easy to set up and it produces results like one would hope. The Forster is also easy to set up, but for some reason the repeatability to a few thousandths of an inch just isn't there.

I'm stumped too.

 

[bobinpa]

Thanks for the input so far. It's appreciated. Here is some more info:
It isn't a compressed load, approx. 58grs H1000. Plenty of room left.
I thought about the VLD stem, but I haven't taken the die apart to check it yet.
I have about .0015 neck tension.
My brass is used and came with the gun. It was prepped and ready to be loaded when I got it so I don't know the history of it, but it looks good and measures consistent. The pressure needed to seat the bullets feels consistent and not excessive.
My measurements vary from too big to too small. Meaning, I am looking for an OAL with the comparator of 3.280. The loaded rounds vary from 3.270 to 3.286, mostly, with an occasional round going outside of those parameters. Although there isn't much of a chamfer on the mouths, I don't think there are any burs, and I am kind of ruling that out since some rounds are actually smaller than I want. I will redo the chamfers before I load any more just to see if it helps.
I used a marker and colored a couple of bullets to see if they were being pulled back out by the seating stem and it looks like they are not. Also, on a Whidden die, I thought the stem slides with the "floating" sleeve and stops against a fixed, adjustable stop.

I know some guys don't like the Sinclair nut comparator, but I can get repeatable readings with it. My other loaded rounds vary up to .002, which I have accepted as being variations in the bullets themselves, but at least I get repeatable readings.

I am going to try and call Whidden today to get a VLD stem just in case. A conversation with them may help also..... I just didn't think it was necessary.

 

[/VH]

Is it possible that the neck of the die is too tight? If you run a sized case up in the die and back out with no bullet, will it change the neck diameter of the case? That would not necessarily be a conclusive test but then again, it might show some indication.

 

[bobinpa]

Thanks. I just tried that. There is no change in the neck size.

 

[dkhunt14]

It is really hard to tell seating pressure with a regular press. Matt

 

[/VH]

It is really hard to tell seating pressure with a regular press. Matt

I agree with this as well.

Bob,

It may be that the neck is a little too tight once the bullet expands the case neck and at the moment, I am not able to think of a good way to check this. Maybe color the outside of the case neck......

 

[BenPerfected]

Not an expert, but I really like the consistency of the Wilson seating die.

 

['Freak]

Could be there's an oops within Whidden's die setup instruction in that theirs read bassackwards from what Redding says do. A Redding Comp Seater is turned in until the sliding sleeve compresses fully into the die body which should leave the die body touching the shellholder on a fully extended ram. From there the Redding body is backed out away from the shellholder enough to bring the micrometer vertical index line to the front where folk can see it, and it’ll leave some daylight showing between the die body and the shellholder.

Whidden’s instructions read screw the die in until it contacts shell holder and then turn it in another “1-2 turns”, instead of backing the die body away from the ram? Figgers to me that with the Whidden die turned in far enough to have the press do its cam-over thing, then there could easily be enough force/stress involved to distort the die body and in turn the die body binds the sliding sleeve and/or other innards.

 

[Patch700]

It is very probable that what you are experiencing is the seating stem of your redding die is coming into contact with an area of the ogive that is a closer match to where your comparator reads as compared to the whidden stem.

Even if you have a VLD stem you still may see this happen.

In a nutshell , if your comparator is not reading at the same location as your seating stem then your numbers may not add up to a hill of beans and could be equivalent to setting a seating depth from the tip of the bullet to ctg base.

Google "Bob Green comparator"

Good luck.

 

[/VH]

I am going to try and call Whidden today to get a VLD stem just in case. A conversation with them may help also..... I just didn't think it was necessary.

Bob,

Were you able to get in touch with Whidden today? Just curious if you got it figured out and what the issue was.

 

[bobinpa]

I didn't have time to call Whidden today, but I will. I'll post what they have to say. I don't know what they will be able to tell me..... I took the die apart. The seating stem slides until it hits the stop. It's as basic as it gets. Here is what I explored tonight. After reading the post by patch700, I measured some bullets. I know that Hornady AMAXs aren't as precise and consistent as others, but I prefer them for ground hog hunting. I took a small sample of random bullets from the box. 10 to be exact and I measured them with a Sinclair nut. First I used the .26 cal hole. All 10 were within .002 of one another. Then, just to measure to a different area on the bullet, I did the same thing using the .25 cal hole. All were within .002 of one another. Then, I did it again using the 6mm/.243 cal hole and they got better..... all were within .001 of each other, except for 2. Those 2 were within .002.
This whole thing makes no sense to me at all. I am pretty mechanically inclined and I've been precision reloading for years. The press's ram pushes up on the head of the brass, which slides up in a sleeve, until the bullet engages the seating stem and it all stops when the ram tops out, which is the same time the seating stem touches it's stop. It's metal on metal on metal etc..... If they varied in length but were all to long, I could see excessive neck tension, maybe, but some of them are to short!?!?!? The press is in good shape too. It hasn't been abused and has no excessive play in it. It's good enough to get my other cartridges to seat within .002 of one another.

 

[bobinpa]

Could be there's an oops within Whidden's die setup instruction in that theirs read bassackwards from what Redding says do. A Redding Comp Seater is turned in until the sliding sleeve compresses fully into the die body which should leave the die body touching the shellholder on a fully extended ram. From there the Redding body is backed out away from the shellholder enough to bring the micrometer vertical index line to the front where folk can see it, and it’ll leave some daylight showing between the die body and the shellholder.

Whidden’s instructions read screw the die in until it contacts shell holder and then turn it in another “1-2 turns”, instead of backing the die body away from the ram? Figgers to me that with the Whidden die turned in far enough to have the press do its cam-over thing, then there could easily be enough force/stress involved to distort the die body and in turn the die body binds the sliding sleeve and/or other innards.

I didn't interpret it that way. I raised the ram and threaded the die into the press until the sliding sleeve touched the ram, not the body of the die itself. Then I turned it in another 2 turns so the sleeve would move 1/8" to 1/4" with the ram all the way up, as the directions said.

 

[Dos XX]

I have used 2 of their seating dies, 6.5 CM and .308 Win, and have been able to hold tolerances closer to plus or minus .001 with them. Something's up.

You could load up a few with no primer or powder to send to them.

 

[bobinpa]

Thanks, that's encouraging. I gave up on the loaded rounds. I am now just seating bullets in "dummy" rounds. My next step is to prep some of the brass myself and seat some bullets just to see if it makes a difference. Maybe there is something with the brass that I am missing. If I prep it myself, maybe I'll stumble onto something.

 

[queen_stick]

sub'd

curious how this turns out...