Redding Competition seating die issue / question (not very accurate?)

[hogpatrol]

I found the T7 to have too much slop in it for seating precisely. I modified mine by removing enough metal from the spacer so I could lock it down tight. Sans neck tension issues, all bullets seat within .001. I am NOT shooting matches with this ammo.

 

[danny]

Hello all,

Scratching my head on this one. Bought a new set of Redding Competition dies - both the neck sizing and the seating. Am trying to work up a load per Tony Boyer's book BORA so I start by finding my Jamb length. I think I got it. Set my seating die. Measure with my Davidson seating depth checker attached to my Mitutoyu digital calipers. Reads 2.7020. I leave the die set.

So now I'm loading three shells at a time. They are cleaned. I pass three through the neck sizer die. I clean the inside with a brush, clean the primer pocket, prime the three, carefully put in 24.2gr Varget, put a Berger 73gr bullet on top, put it in the seating die. I do this for a total of 9 cases, only changing the measure of Varget. I measure the cases and they are all over the place from 2.7040 - 2.7130 which is a 9 thou spread. So how the heck am I supposed to find my sweet spot when the dies cannot consistently seat a bullet? Am I doing something wrong?

I measured a couple dozen previously loaded cases which were loaded with a $30 Hornady die set and they were only off by 2 thou.

If you guy don't come up with a good answer I'll just have to give Redding a call.

BTW, this is in my brand new Redding T7 Turret press too.

Thanks,
Michael

Michael,
This never happened tp me, but I have seen others complain about it, so it is about as good of a thing to look into as anything else. It is quite possible that the end of the seating stem where it contacts your bullet is not very compatible with the specific bullet you use. You know, the stems are kind of a "one size fits all" situation, which in some cases does not work out well. People have had instances where the seating stem has contacted the tip of the bullet, not the ogive, which is not very acurate to seat off of, or take measurements from, because, as you know, the tips vary more than just about anything on the bullet.
Lee, I believe used to offer, or still does, service to modify the stem to fit a specific bullet, if you find a problem, and maybe Redding can do that as well.

Danny

 

[Brians356]

Michael,
Thid never happened tp me, but I have seen others complain about it, so it is about as good if a thing to look into as anything else. It is quite possible that the end of the seating stem where it contacts your bullet is not very compatible with the specific bullet you use. You know, the stems are kind of a "one size fits all" situation, which in some cases does not work out well. People have had instances where the seating stem has contacted the tip of the bullet, not the ogive, which is not very acurate to seat off of, or take measurements from, because, as you know, the tips vary more than just about anything on the bullet.

+1
Which is exactly what I suggested on 24 February.
-

 

[timeout]

I'll check my math...

Yes I cleaned the dies before installing them.

Could be my error... I'll re-think it...

I don't sort brass nor bullets. I don't trim and I don't turn.

I reload...

Do you anneal? A difference in neck tension between cases will result in different seating depth length measurements.

 

[danny]

+1
Which is exactly what I suggested on 24 February.
-

brians356,
I looked to see if someone had suggested your solution, and somehow I missed your posting. I hope we have helped him solve the issue.

Danny

 

[amlevin]

Do you anneal? A difference in neck tension between cases will result in different seating depth length measurements.

Not only annealing but if using a bushing neck sizing die on unturned cases it would be a good idea to at least "Skim Cut" the necks with a turning tool to make sure all cases have same or close to same neck thicknesses. If not done all cases will have the same OD but varying neck thicknesses will make neck tensions irregular, even if annealed.

If one doesn't want to turn or skim cut the necks then buy a mandrel type expander that's ground to the exact size you need for the neck tension you want.

Another option although more expensive, is to get a neck reamer and ream fired cases. The outside will assume chamber size (- spring back) and the reamer will knock off the high spots that are now inside the neck. Also removes any doughnuts that may have formed along the way.

I am currently forming 6.5 Creedmoor cases from .308 Palma brass (Lapua) and am using a Wilson Neck Reamer. I now have cases with minimal neck clearance (by leaving them a little large at first when fire-forming). Every case has so far ended up with neck thicknesses uniform to +/- .0005" and TIR <.005" loaded.

The accuracy followed.

 

[CJ6]

Check the BTO on the bullets.....

 

[alb]

I use that seating die on a T7, though I full-length size with the FL die from the competition set rather than neck size. It's been extremely consistent in my experience.

One thing that I find to be helpful in terms of seating consistency is use of the Redding dry neck sizing lube, i.e. the powdered carbon that's delivered by dipping the necks in a small tub of ceramic balls coated with it. For FL sizing I dip the necks in that first before I lube the case.

It makes sizing practically effortless, but it seems to me that the residual lube that's left inside the neck makes bullet seating much more consistent. I think if your cleaning technique is one that leaves the cases squeaky clean, e.g., ultrasonic, wet tumbling, this can be a real help.

 

[tcoz]

I found the T7 to have too much slop in it for seating precisely. I modified mine by removing enough metal from the spacer so I could lock it down tight. Sans neck tension issues, all bullets seat within .001. I am NOT shooting matches with this ammo.

Are you using the turret bushing that came with the turret that you indicated has too much slop?

I talked to Redding when I first got my T-7 and he said two things are very important. First, the turret should be torqued to 42-45 lbs and second, use only the bushing that came with the turret. They're manufactured as a matched pair and shouldn't be mixed up. He also told me that an almost imperceptible amount of play is manufactured into the press and will be accounted for in the operation of it.

I have no reason to doubt anything that he said, especially since I had called on a completely unrelated issue. I follow his instructions and have never had a problem with inconsistencies in any of my ammo.

 

[tcoz]

I measure the cases and they are all over the place from 2.7040 - 2.7130 which is a 9 thou spread. So how the heck am I supposed to find my sweet spot when the dies cannot consistently seat a bullet?

FWIW, I know this doesn't solve your problem but a couple of points are worth mentioning....

First, even the best bullets aren't perfect and can vary a few thou in the ogive.

Second, this quote comes from the article I've referenced which is written by one of the Master Bulletsmiths at Berger Bullets......
(http://www.bergerbullets.com/getting-the-best-precision-and-accuracy-from-vld-bullets-in-your-rifle/)

"The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands."

If the sweet spot is that large, your 9 thou variance might not be the issue that you think it is.
BTW, I emailed Berger and asked whether this article applies to non VLD bullets and they replied that it holds true for any bullets.

 

[hogpatrol]

Are you using the turret bushing that came with the turret that you indicated has too much slop?

I talked to Redding when I first got my T-7 and he said two things are very important. First, the turret should be torqued to 42-45 lbs and second, use only the bushing that came with the turret. They're manufactured as a matched pair and shouldn't be mixed up. He also told me that an almost imperceptible amount of play is manufactured into the press and will be accounted for in the operation of it.

I have no reason to doubt anything that he said, especially since I had called on a completely unrelated issue. I follow his instructions and have never had a problem with inconsistencies in any of my ammo.

My T7 came direct from the factory. It had .005 slop in the vertical at the detent ball. Possibly the bushing wasn't matched to the turret? Don't know but it's fixed now.

 

[tenring]

I seat bullets mostly with Wilson dies, but I also have Redding Competition dies. I find bullets seated in the Redding dies to be somewhat inconsistent, and this bugged me for a while. My solution is to seat all the bullets about 5-10 thou long, then set each in a loading block . Each line of five holes on the block is numbered with the. thousandths over desired length CBTO, measured with my Davidson base and nose piece on calipers. I do this for 20 at a time, then lower the micrometer .001" for each bullet and run them thru the seater again.
This process takes a little longer, but the results are spot on. Of course, it does not work when bullets are seated deep into compressed loads.

 

[mjgillen]

Thanks for all the tips and advice. I ended up getting my issues mostly resolved, at least good enough for now.


Short answer: Redding replaced the ram on my T7 turret press which resolved 90% of the problem and I bought a new Redding shell holder which gets me to about 99.9% problem solved. I only see very very slight marring of the bullets, near the top of the case, on 1 in 25 or so cartridges and the seating depth is +/- one thou so I am OK with that. Many are seated within ½ thou.


Long answer: I contacted Redding and “AJ” in customer support was very helpful. Redding has a real person answer the phone every time (no “press 1 for English”… ) and the “operator” transferred me immediately to customer support. I worked with the same guy (AJ) the entire two weeks or more to get this resolved. He was very helpful and we talked for a while, discussed the issue, made some suggestions, and had me send him some photos of the setup. I tried his suggestions and when it became apparent that we would not resolve it over the phone I mailed him my set of dies and a handful of my brass and my bullets. So AJ sets it all up (his press) and says he cannot duplicate the problem. Bummer. However he is going to send me a new ram for the press, thinking that might help. A few days later I get the new ram and things are better but not 100%. So he suggests trying a different shell holder so I buy a new Redding shell holder and the results are good enough for now. Almost no issue really. And the performance is completely acceptable.


A few observations:


First, it’s really nice to deal with real people and have real people answer the phones. Also, AJ got back to me through email and/or phone calls right away. Emails usually within an hour and phone calls within a few hours. I recently had a complaint with another company on an order and they got back to me, through email, a week later. So it was really nice to see Redding so responsive.


Redding never tried to blame the issue on the bullet manufacturer (Berger).


Redding was willing to continue to work with me until it was resolved to my satisfaction.


I think my expectation of the performance of the equipment was a little too high. Having only worked with “regular” dies, shelling out $250 for a set of precision dies I guess I expected to be able to “set it and forget it” and see every bullet measure the exact same. That’s just not realistic for a number of reasons, one of the most obvious is tolerances / variations in the bullets themselves, not to mention the fact that I don’t anneal, I don’t trim, I don’t turn my brass. Sure I’m using the Redding competition neck dies with a bushing however variations in the brass could result is variances in neck tension which could result in variances in seating depth.


Another problem is my technique, of which I didn’t have one, and am still learning. I learned quickly that when adjusting the seating depth, start long and go shorter is small increments, and always back it off a full turn before adjusting up or down. You see, I would turn the dial down… oops too far, then back it off a few thou and the results just were not consistent until the new setting “settled in”. By backing off a full turn then going down to your new setting you will be much more consistent because you are always approaching the new setting from the same “direction”. So just something I read in one of the many posts I read while researching this issue. I am sure I have more technique to develop, I just don’t know it yet


And one last point, up until I started using the Redding dies I was using dies with much more loose fit, finish, tolerances. So my expectations for the “old” dies was very low and I could have had the same problem except for the fact that those dies don’t have the tight tolerances of the Redding dies so the issues (possibly) never appeared.


OK so now I’m loading and I still see some abrasion/marring on a small percentage of the bullets. After searching through this forum I see that others have had the same problems. One person suggests a little “polishing” of the inside of the sleeve where the bullet would enter the tiny hole for it as well as polishing the seating stem. I may try that in the near future if this bugs me enough. AJ said to be careful not to take off too much as then you’re risking misalignment of the bullet. So it’s a tradeoff of sorts. And as others have pointed out, Berger says the sweet spot for their VLDs is 30-40 thou so having a seating depth variation of 2 thou isn’t going to make that much of a difference in my current long range shooting adventure.


So I think it’s good enough for now. And proof of that: I attended my first “F-Class” match over the weekend and shot a 433/450 with 14 X’s at 300 yards with my completely stock Savage 12FV Cabela’s special that I paid $320 with a Weaver 36T scope on it. Federal Lake City brass, Varget, Berger 73gr, CCI 450. I would say the ammo performed the best ever, loaded with the new Redding dies (new ram, new shell holder). Once I got the dies dialed in I verified the seating depth was pretty consistent and then checked every 10th round. All were within two thou. I’ve been shooting this rifle, my first centerfire, for only 10 months. I think the equipment is working good enough for now.


OK so long answer to the question however I wanted to post this. A lot of other people have chimed in and they deserve the full answer.


Thanks again!

Michael

 

[ranger3]

I would go back to the Rock chucker press I think it's your press you seem to know what you're doing otherwise.

 

['Freak]

Are you resizing the case body in the Redding Body Die, with or without ‘bump’, before neck sizing in the Redding Competition Bushing Neck Die? If not then could be the case body, previously resized using a different die, was left a bit too fat so now causing the case body to variously stick within the sliding sleeve before the case shoulder is all the way up against the shoulder of the sliding sleeve, possibly.

 

[mjgillen]

Yes, I am using the Redding Body die. Not sure about the "bump", just using the die as is, nothing special. Screwing the die down until it contacts the shell holder.

Michael

 

[farmergreg]

Yes, I am using the Redding Body die. Not sure about the "bump", just using the die as is, nothing special. Screwing the die down until it contacts the shell holder.

Michael

Bump would be measured with a gauge sleeve attached to you caliper. Check a fire formed case from your chamber. Adjust the die down until you have the desired bump or shoulder set back as measured by the gauge/caliper. About .002 for a bolt gun.
It's possible by contacting the shellholder you are sizing the shoulder too far.

 

[iowamike]

I have the same problem with the Redding Competition Seating Die in all of my single stage presses. Even with incremental seating the issues with inconsistent seating, the stem grabbing and holding onto the bullet so tightly that when the ram is lowered it pulls on the bullet and changes the seating depth, and gouges on the ogive and induced run out occur regularly. This happens on all of the Hornady ELD bullets in both .223 rem and 6.5CM. that I use. I bought the Redding long "VLD" replacement stems for both dies, had the same issues, polished both stems in many steps and still had the same issues. After talking to the Redding customer technician I bought another set of the long "VLD" stems from Redding a year later thinking that they had made some changes to fix this problem, still the same result. I have reduced the neck tension to the point that I can force a bullet in by hand (with quite a bit of force) and dry lubed the bullet base and still the issue persists. The only fix I have found is the use of dry Imperial Graphite Lube on the bullet ogive. The problem with that is that as the graphite builds up on the setm the seating depth is constantly changing. So I have scrapped the Redding equipment and when I took it to a swap meet at our local gun range I was told by several of the high power shooters that they all had similar issues. Now using the Forster Ultra Seaters and the Forster newer version of the VLD stem for both calibers with no issues. My conclusion is that the Redding stems just are not reamed to the proper profile to handle the Hornady ELD bullets.

 

[dgeesaman]

Any chance your primers are taller than the primer pockets? I had a couple out of every dozen that did that and I only noticed the problem when checking CBTO length. They were probably seating to a consistent depth but the tall primer threw off the measuring tool. Got a primer pocket uniformer and now I seat with a Redding comp seater and Rockchucker to +/- .001" consistently.

 

[Fotheringill]

I have the same die in .223 and a Rock Chucker.

No problems with either.

"...You see, I would turn the dial down… oops too far, then back it off a few thou and the results just were not consistent until the new setting “settled in”. By backing off a full turn then going down to your new setting you will be much more consistent because you are always approaching the new setting from the same “direction”. ..."

The above might be your issue.

I wouldn't be polishing anything. Clean, sure, but not polish. Ask the friendly one of two actual humans in the tech area of Redding about this and whether they want to polish if they find it to be recommended. Otherwise, you are going to wind up purchasing a new die and attaching the micrometer top to it if you are over exuberant or in error in your polishing attempts.