School me on case annealers

[JamesnTN]

For yrs I annealed my cases by hand in the dark I think this go around I want to purchase an annealer and do it more consistent and correctly I suppose is proper term. With so many out there I like to know which annealer is the best value for the money? I'm not going to be doing this at a commercial level and will most likely only anneal my cases 50-100 at a time with 50 being the most likely number.

Thanks in advance.

 

[XTR]

Get a bench source annealer. They are the way to go. If you are too worried about pressure drop, put the annealer on a regulator on a 20# propane tank and be fixed for life.

lastly, the pressure in a propane bottle does not go down as it is used, at least not until there is no liquid left. I've been through this a decade ago with guys who thought they needed to buy expensive refills for their DuPont lighters.

As long as the propane is in the liquid and and gas phase in the system the pressure will only vary with temperature. In practice the reality is that the cylinders are small and as they vent off some of the propane you do get a temperature drop and a slight decrease in pressure as long as the cylinder is venting through the torch tips. Bigger bottle, bigger heat sink for the latent heat of vaporization that is given up as the liquid turns to gas.

You don't get it, do you :

Tank pressure has NOTHING to do with the heat at the flame

edit: and yes, that slight decrease in pressure does in fact change the annealing temperature because it has an effect similar to closing the valve. If you set your system up with templac and you are attentive to the flame color and the inner flame tip you can make adjustments during the process to keep your annealing consistent

 

[csandfort]

But you, JRS, just said above that pressure in the small propane tank or unplugged air compressor will produce smaller flame or less deep seated nails and a regulator will maintain the desired heat at the flame. Then you said, tank pressure has nothing.. ahh never mind!

+1 for the bench source annealer

 

[JamesnTN]

My intent was to get a propane tank used for outdoor grills and add a regulator to it. Then have some hoses made for two torches. Basically I just need to know which annealer to get.

 

[XTR]

But you, JRS, just said above that pressure in the small propane tank or unplugged air compressor will produce smaller flame or less deep seated nails and a regulator will maintain the desired heat at the flame. Then you said, tank pressure has nothing.. ahh never mind!

+1 for the bench source annealer

Exactly!

Tank pressure does NOT control pressure at the source. Why is that so hard to understand? When my oxygen bottle drops to roughly 1000 psi, I have to crank up the pressure on the regulator at the torch side, to maintain 35psi. As tank pressure drops, the pressure at the source drops. It isn't rocket science!

Do you understand that the pressure in every propane tank in the US is about 150PSI at 75F? I don't care if it's mounted on a rail car or a 20lb tank on your grill. It's called vapor pressure. You can't change it.

Tank pressure the little propane tanks used to run an annealer have no regulator, pressure in the tank directly effects flow at the torch tip. Your o2 bottle is full of gas, not liquid (unless you are running liquid o2, which I've done running gasoline tips cutting armor plate) so as soon as you crack the valve the pressure starts to drop, the problem for you with pressure dropping at the torch is that the regulator is not designed to keep constant flow from 2500PSI to 100 PSI, so when the upstream pressure drops you have to adjust the regulator. You could put a regulator on the tank that would give you a steady 35 PSIG at the tip from full to about 50, but it would cost more, and who wants that when all you have to do is tweak the valve once in a while

 

[XTR]

My intent was to get a propane tank used for outdoor grills and add a regulator to it. Then have some hoses made for two torches. Basically I just need to know which annealer to get.

I thought about doing that, but honestly, that's a lifetime supply of propane for an annealer unless you are annealing a few thousand cases a day. It's probably not worth it.

 

[XTR]

Pressure at the source is regulated at the source, not the tank.

The annealer makers love you guys ;D You get what they want you to buy, and they add that money to their retirement accounts 8)

BTW: You have to do the same thing with the bottle of acetylene ;D

Why do we have 2 sides to regulators on gauges? One shows the bottle pressure, the other is an adjustment for the pressure at the torch. Finally understanding?

Pressure is controlled by the regulator, the capability of the regulator is controlled by the engineering that goes into it. The reason that you have to change the setting on the regulator as your O2 bottle pressure goes down is that the regulator design (engineering) is such that it cannot give you consistent FLOW at 35psig for a varying upstream pressure, spend 5x and it can, shut off the O2 valve on your torch and the pressure downstream of the regulator should go to the set pressure. Understanding yet?

Actually with the pressure in an Acetylene tank I've never had to tweak it much since the upstream pressure is so low to start with. Then again I may have been using better regulators than you.

I have no idea what you are talking about with this comment

The annealer makers love you guys ;D You get what they want you to buy, and they add that money to their retirement accounts 8)

care to clarify?

The annealers that are commercially available operate with the little propane cylinders that you pick up at Home Depot, Lowes or Ace hardware, no $$ into the pockets of any annealer makers there.

 

[artbosco]

For yrs I annealed my cases by hand in the dark I think this go around I want to purchase an annealer and do it more consistent and correctly I suppose is proper term. With so many out there I like to know which annealer is the best value for the money? I'm not going to be doing this at a commercial level and will most likely only anneal my cases 50-100 at a time with 50 being the most likely number. Thanks in advance.

An empty seat is waiting for you. School is in session here: http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

 

[effendude]

Benchsource shipped yesterday. I have used a friend's several times and can't think of how it could be improved.
Buy once, cry once.
Scott

 

[wolfman]

I've been wondering why the Giraud doesn't get the love that Benchsource does. The ability to load up 200 cases in the hopper and go do something else seems like a huge advantage. What am I missing?

 

[csandfort]

I seriously considered the Giraud but believe, maybe incorrectly, that the smallest/shortest cases it will handle are .223 and .17Rem. I shoot a lot of the shorter 17FB, 17AH and 20VT so I purchased the Benchsource.

 

[effendude]

The Benchsource rotates each case as it is heated which may or may not help, but it sure seems to assist in even heat distribution. It also allows the case to cool a little before it dumps it out of the machine.

Loading by hand, it only takes 15 minutes to do 200 cases. Those 15 minutes are a nice break from double powder charges. ;D
Scott

 

[XTR]

I've been wondering why the Giraud doesn't get the love that Benchsource does. The ability to load up 200 cases in the hopper and go do something else seems like a huge advantage. What am I missing?

The benchsource is simpler, unless you are annealing 1000 cases at a sitting it doesn't take long, and even if you are it still doesn't take long. If you are starting an annealing service then the Giraud is probably the way to go, but the first time you set up your bench Source you anneal all the brass you own in a short time, then call to see if your neighbor has any.

It is easier to change calibers on the Bench Source, because there is nothing to change. It is complete for anything you want to anneal as purchased.


I'm certain that the Giraud is a fine unit, their trimmer certainly is, but for most shooters the Benchsource does the job.

 

[Erud]

I have the Giraud and I like it a lot. The single torch setup is not quite as fast as the Benchsource's 2 torches, but as mentioned you don't have to do anything besides load it up and let it go. I annealed 259 .308 cases last night and it took about 35 minutes at 8 seconds per case. The actual work part(loading the hopper) only took about 4 minutes though, so I did other stuff while it did it's thing.

I've seen the Benchsource at work and it is also very nice. I wouldn't be unhappy with either one.

 

[nosualc]

I've got a Bench Source and can find very little fault with it. Quick to set up, and once set up, the time it takes to do a batch is just a multiple of how long each case sits under the flame. You do have to stand there and feed it (which I've often delegated to my young boys).

I do like the two torch setup as it lets you use shorter dwell times (3.2 seconds per 6BRX case, 4 seconds per 284/308 case). I run mine with a splitter off a 20# tank, which has two advantages over the little LP bottles: 1) it lasts forever, and 2) it gets the weight of the bottles off the torches.

I have a friend who's used my Bench Source, and later bought a Giraud (he strives to be "different"). His synopsis is that the Giraud shines if you don't change cases very often. The Bench Source is easier to change cases.

Po-Tay-Toe, Po-Tah-Toe

-nosualc

 

[wolfman]

thanks for the responses gents

 

[Juma]

For yrs I annealed my cases by hand in the dark I think this go around I want to purchase an annealer and do it more consistent and correctly I suppose is proper term. With so many out there I like to know which annealer is the best value for the money? I'm not going to be doing this at a commercial level and will most likely only anneal my cases 50-100 at a time with 50 being the most likely number.

Thanks in advance.

Assuming all these commercial machines use the same propane out of a bottle which is the same thing you do with a Dewalt how does a machine do it more proper.We have done close to 15k now by hand and I bet no machine can do it better.John Barsness does it by hand with a candle.LOL. Annealing and SSM are the voodoo of reloading.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I have been using a Giraud annealer for a couple of years now. I usually do a couple hundred cases at a time (2 boxes). I load up the hopper with 100 cases and let fly. I catch the cases in a cardboard box on the floor. Then I'll load the next 100 cases and that's it. Works great.

 

[nosualc]

Assuming all these commercial machines use the same propane out of a bottle which is the same thing you do with a Dewalt how does a machine do it more proper.We have done close to 15k now by hand and I bet no machine can do it better.John Barsness does it by hand with a candle.LOL. Annealing and SSM are the voodoo of reloading.

For long range competition I find annealing to be invaluable in maintaining consistent sizing and neck tension. So much so that I anneal as part of my normal reloading regime (read: every time).

With a machine I can anneal 200 cases in 10-13 minutes depending on the case. I know each one is annealed exactly the same way. I suppose its possible, but extremely unlikely, that anyone could be as consistent by hand, but there's no way they can do it in the same amount of time.

A machine that enables me to anneal regularly with repeatable consistency? I'd call that better.

-nosualc

 

[Erud]

For yrs I annealed my cases by hand in the dark I think this go around I want to purchase an annealer and do it more consistent and correctly I suppose is proper term. With so many out there I like to know which annealer is the best value for the money? I'm not going to be doing this at a commercial level and will most likely only anneal my cases 50-100 at a time with 50 being the most likely number.

Thanks in advance.

Assuming all these commercial machines use the same propane out of a bottle which is the same thing you do with a Dewalt how does a machine do it more proper.We have done close to 15k now by hand and I bet no machine can do it better.John Barsness does it by hand with a candle.LOL. Annealing and SSM are the voodoo of reloading.

No offense, but I think it's safe to assume that removing all of the variables like distance from flame, speed of rotation, and length of time in the flame would make virtually any machine "better" than the method you use. That doesn't mean that your method doesn't work, but there's no way it will be as consistent as a good machine.