Pietro panama
Gold $$ Contributor
Does anyone have personal experience with loads for subject rifle?
Cannot find one.
Cannot find one.
Savage 12 Palma .308 1:13 twist
- Thread starter Pietro panama
- Start date
watercam
Silver $$ Contributor
Classic Palma twist for 155 grain bullets when that was all one could compete with. Still is in Fullbore and International. Use the Savage barrel and develop your shooting and wind reading skills. At that point you can decide what barrel twist you want to replace it with.
Yes, I have a Savage 12 Palma which I use for mid-range (600yd) matches. I developed this load which has served me well for mid-range but would not hold up for 1000yds.
Bullet: Hornady 168 AMAX (seated to .010" off lands)
Brass: Winchester
Powder: Varget
Primer: Federal 210M
Measured velocity: 2865 fps
One note: The 168 has to be seated deep into the case because of the short throat of the Palma chamber - not really ideal. Also, with the amount of Varget I'm using, it is a mildly compressed load.
If you can get one of the 155gr Palma bullets (Sierra 2155 or 2156 or Berger 155.5) to work for you, you'll be in good shape. I'm using the 168 AMAX as I have a good supply of them and they work for my purpose.
Mike
Bullet: Hornady 168 AMAX (seated to .010" off lands)
Brass: Winchester
Powder: Varget
Primer: Federal 210M
Measured velocity: 2865 fps
One note: The 168 has to be seated deep into the case because of the short throat of the Palma chamber - not really ideal. Also, with the amount of Varget I'm using, it is a mildly compressed load.
If you can get one of the 155gr Palma bullets (Sierra 2155 or 2156 or Berger 155.5) to work for you, you'll be in good shape. I'm using the 168 AMAX as I have a good supply of them and they work for my purpose.
Mike
Your first step is to see what bullet(s) your barrel likes - most barrels have preferences caused by the interactions of barrel internal dimensions, bullet diameter and shape.
As Mike says, the 1-13 inch twist and short throat was designed specifically for 155gn bullet Palma and Fullbore Rifle loads, so a good starting point is any of the better 155s - Lapua Scenar, two Sierras, Berger 155.5gn BT Fullbore are the outstanding models, maybe Hornady A-Max for shorter ranges. The original lower BC 155gn Sierra MatchKing (p/n 2155) is a very forgiving design and is often a good starting point.
Despite the slow twist barrel, you're not limited to 155s, as this twist rate will stabilise the older and lower BC 168s that often shoot really well at shorter (up to 600 yards) ranges - the Sierra MatchKing and its near copies from Hornady (the HPBT Match model and A-Max), Speer and Nosler CC, also the 167gn Lapua Scenar. It also just stabilises the 175gn Sierra MK, another extremely tolerant design that shoots well in most barrels, likewise the superb but pricier 175gn Berger LRBT, even just stabilises the 185gn Berger LR BT 'Juggernaut' in warmer weather if it's a true 1-13" twist barrel. (Not the VLD and Hybrid versions of Berger 168s, 175s and 185s - they're too long for the twist and need higher spin rates.)
The problem as Mike points out is that you'll need to seat them pretty deep because of the short throat. (That can be sorted cheaply by a gunsmith - the throat can be lengthened by use of a hand-reamer that doesn't need the barrel taken off, 'clocked-up' in a lathe and other expensive, time-consuming work.)
So far as recipes go, there are scores to choose from using many powders. The US [Palma] Rifle Teams Long Range Forum has plenty of threads on this subject, but go into it and click on the 'Precision Handloading' section and you'll find an overview of basic loads right up top as a 'pinned topic' called 'Palma Loads'.
http://www.usrifleteams.com/lrforum/
The norm for these guys uses around 45-46.5gn Varget with 155s, but lots and lots of powders work well - Viht N140 and N150, IMR and H4895, IMR and Accurate 4064, Alliant Re15, Ramshot TAC and so on and so forth. The Viht and especially Hodgdon powders are prized for their lack of temperature sensitivity.
To a certain extent, what you load for and to depends on the distances you plan to shoot over. If you're planning on 'short range' (defined as up to 600 yards in TR and F/TR, but you can in practice add 800 too), you have a lot of leeway as your loads aren't velocity-critical. What you need is something that groups really tight and holds its elevation at all distances. 900 and 1,000 yards are a completely different ball game that needs ballistically suitable bullets (NOT the 168s excluding all three Berger models which are OK, but two if which aren't suited to 13-inch twist barrels anyway) at suitable MVs. The minimum standard is a high BC 155 that remains stable at long ranges (NOT the A-Max) allied to a minimum 2,950 fps MV to keep the bullets supersonic at this distance - plus of course retaining precision and small elevation spreads. Bear in mind that the US Teams Long-Range Forum is exactly as per its name, so its advice is normally tailored to meet these rather exacting requirements - a 155gn bullet load that shoots really well at 2,750-2,800 is fine at short to mid ranges.
If you enter any matches shot to true Target Rifle / Palma Rifle rules, you are limited to bullets 'that weigh less than 156gn', but most US matches allow any bullet, hence ballistics guru and US national Palma team member Bryan Litz using the 185gn Juggernaut for any bullet matches and 155.5gn BT Fullbore for 'Palma Rules' entries - Berger of course as he is its ballistician and bullet designer.
As Mike says, the 1-13 inch twist and short throat was designed specifically for 155gn bullet Palma and Fullbore Rifle loads, so a good starting point is any of the better 155s - Lapua Scenar, two Sierras, Berger 155.5gn BT Fullbore are the outstanding models, maybe Hornady A-Max for shorter ranges. The original lower BC 155gn Sierra MatchKing (p/n 2155) is a very forgiving design and is often a good starting point.
Despite the slow twist barrel, you're not limited to 155s, as this twist rate will stabilise the older and lower BC 168s that often shoot really well at shorter (up to 600 yards) ranges - the Sierra MatchKing and its near copies from Hornady (the HPBT Match model and A-Max), Speer and Nosler CC, also the 167gn Lapua Scenar. It also just stabilises the 175gn Sierra MK, another extremely tolerant design that shoots well in most barrels, likewise the superb but pricier 175gn Berger LRBT, even just stabilises the 185gn Berger LR BT 'Juggernaut' in warmer weather if it's a true 1-13" twist barrel. (Not the VLD and Hybrid versions of Berger 168s, 175s and 185s - they're too long for the twist and need higher spin rates.)
The problem as Mike points out is that you'll need to seat them pretty deep because of the short throat. (That can be sorted cheaply by a gunsmith - the throat can be lengthened by use of a hand-reamer that doesn't need the barrel taken off, 'clocked-up' in a lathe and other expensive, time-consuming work.)
So far as recipes go, there are scores to choose from using many powders. The US [Palma] Rifle Teams Long Range Forum has plenty of threads on this subject, but go into it and click on the 'Precision Handloading' section and you'll find an overview of basic loads right up top as a 'pinned topic' called 'Palma Loads'.
http://www.usrifleteams.com/lrforum/
The norm for these guys uses around 45-46.5gn Varget with 155s, but lots and lots of powders work well - Viht N140 and N150, IMR and H4895, IMR and Accurate 4064, Alliant Re15, Ramshot TAC and so on and so forth. The Viht and especially Hodgdon powders are prized for their lack of temperature sensitivity.
To a certain extent, what you load for and to depends on the distances you plan to shoot over. If you're planning on 'short range' (defined as up to 600 yards in TR and F/TR, but you can in practice add 800 too), you have a lot of leeway as your loads aren't velocity-critical. What you need is something that groups really tight and holds its elevation at all distances. 900 and 1,000 yards are a completely different ball game that needs ballistically suitable bullets (NOT the 168s excluding all three Berger models which are OK, but two if which aren't suited to 13-inch twist barrels anyway) at suitable MVs. The minimum standard is a high BC 155 that remains stable at long ranges (NOT the A-Max) allied to a minimum 2,950 fps MV to keep the bullets supersonic at this distance - plus of course retaining precision and small elevation spreads. Bear in mind that the US Teams Long-Range Forum is exactly as per its name, so its advice is normally tailored to meet these rather exacting requirements - a 155gn bullet load that shoots really well at 2,750-2,800 is fine at short to mid ranges.
If you enter any matches shot to true Target Rifle / Palma Rifle rules, you are limited to bullets 'that weigh less than 156gn', but most US matches allow any bullet, hence ballistics guru and US national Palma team member Bryan Litz using the 185gn Juggernaut for any bullet matches and 155.5gn BT Fullbore for 'Palma Rules' entries - Berger of course as he is its ballistician and bullet designer.
Pietro panama
Gold $$ Contributor
Laurie, Mikey P: thank you for the guidance. Didn't furnish much detail, so here's brief overview:
Want to shoot 600 and 1000 F Open----although a Palma rifle, have scoped with Leupold 8.5-25.
Also have Savage 12 LRPV in 6BR. Is that a better choice for 600 and/or 1000? Beginner, obviously nothing special so far, open to better quality.
.308 loads with Varget and Win 760. Horn 168 Amax, S155MK, B155VLD, B155Hybrid, Lapua 155Scenar, S155Palma, and S150MK.
Next trial is N540 with S150MK.
Have also tried various jumps.
Frustrated. Will look at US Rifle Team site. Rick J runs our matches here in Tulsa.
Thank you very much again.
Pete
Want to shoot 600 and 1000 F Open----although a Palma rifle, have scoped with Leupold 8.5-25.
Also have Savage 12 LRPV in 6BR. Is that a better choice for 600 and/or 1000? Beginner, obviously nothing special so far, open to better quality.
.308 loads with Varget and Win 760. Horn 168 Amax, S155MK, B155VLD, B155Hybrid, Lapua 155Scenar, S155Palma, and S150MK.
Next trial is N540 with S150MK.
Have also tried various jumps.
Frustrated. Will look at US Rifle Team site. Rick J runs our matches here in Tulsa.
Thank you very much again.
Pete
A good 308 can compete in F-Open at shorter distances where precision often trumps external ballistics issues. Beyond 600 yards, you would expect to be hammered by F/O shooters using higher performance cartridges shooting very high BC 6.5mm and 7mm bullets - 6.5X55mm, 6.5-284, .284 Win and .280/280AI Rem and the 7mm short magnums.
So, for F-Class events, I'd say use the Savage Palma in the F/TR class shooting off a bi-pod - there are lots of very stable wide-foot designs around that'll fit your Palma's accessory rail. Search on this forum, and its Bulletin facility, and other forums that cover F-Class. (There's a live topic somewhere on this forum running now on 'What F/TR bi-pod do you use?') As said before, use the better 155s for the longest ranges. Win 760 doesn't appeal to me in 308 with the bullets you can use with your rifling twist rate and short throat - far too slow burning for 155-168gn bullets.
If the 6BR LRPV is a good performer, it'll be competitive with top notch 105gn VLD loads in F/O at 600 yards unless Tulsa is one of these ranges that sees 10 mph wind speed changes between shots. At 1,000 yards, you should have no trouble finding the target OK even with the LRPV's 26 inch barrel, but again you'll be hammered by guys shooting custom F/O rifles chambered in ..... Give it a go anyway, you'll have fun and as long as you can actually hit the target consistently, learning to read the wind is the biggest job at this stage anyway.
So, for F-Class events, I'd say use the Savage Palma in the F/TR class shooting off a bi-pod - there are lots of very stable wide-foot designs around that'll fit your Palma's accessory rail. Search on this forum, and its Bulletin facility, and other forums that cover F-Class. (There's a live topic somewhere on this forum running now on 'What F/TR bi-pod do you use?') As said before, use the better 155s for the longest ranges. Win 760 doesn't appeal to me in 308 with the bullets you can use with your rifling twist rate and short throat - far too slow burning for 155-168gn bullets.
If the 6BR LRPV is a good performer, it'll be competitive with top notch 105gn VLD loads in F/O at 600 yards unless Tulsa is one of these ranges that sees 10 mph wind speed changes between shots. At 1,000 yards, you should have no trouble finding the target OK even with the LRPV's 26 inch barrel, but again you'll be hammered by guys shooting custom F/O rifles chambered in ..... Give it a go anyway, you'll have fun and as long as you can actually hit the target consistently, learning to read the wind is the biggest job at this stage anyway.
I have two Savage Palmas.
They both shoot well with 155 AMAX and 45.0 gr Varget.
This recipe works very well at 3-600 yards. It is not adequate for 1000 yards. I'm still working on a good recipe for that distance.
You will need to be cautious regarding seating depth. The 95 Palma chambering has a marginally shorter throat, so you can easily find that bullets seated for SAAMI chambers will be in contact with the lands. Consequently, you can easily get pressure problems with this setup.
Take your time and be careful.
JS
They both shoot well with 155 AMAX and 45.0 gr Varget.
This recipe works very well at 3-600 yards. It is not adequate for 1000 yards. I'm still working on a good recipe for that distance.
You will need to be cautious regarding seating depth. The 95 Palma chambering has a marginally shorter throat, so you can easily find that bullets seated for SAAMI chambers will be in contact with the lands. Consequently, you can easily get pressure problems with this setup.
Take your time and be careful.
JS
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