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Sartorius Magnetic GD503 Scale? Should or Shouldn't

What do you guys think about the Sartorius Magnetic GD503 scale? Is it really worth the money, or should I just keep on using my RCBS scale. I was thinking about purchasing one but the cost is high and will it make that much of a difference at the 600 yards.
Thanks Anthony
 
Devil's advocate:

Sam Hall shoots little bitty 600 yard records using an old beam scale. Most are accurate to within a couple individual grains of powder once you get used to them.

A digital may help you load a little faster but probably won't make you shoot any more accurately.
 
Try reading this,...
Wayne.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3772774.0.html
 
in2deep said:
Devil's advocate:

Sam Hall shoots little bitty 600 yard records at Williamsport using an old beam scale. Most are accurate to within a couple individual grains of powder once you get used to them.

A digital may help you load a little faster but probably won't make you shoot any more accurately.
I totally agree with you! I use a gem pro digital currently, but have a tuned beam scale in the works. The price of the lab grade scales is ridiculous. Sure, they are accurate, but how accurate do you truthfully need to weigh powder?
 
David Tubb says that you need to be able to weigh to +/- one kernal of H4350 which equals .03 grains. Get the Sartorius and a cheap trickler or spring for a Prometheus. That level of precision won't show up at the 2-300 yard line but should effect your SD and group size at the 1000yd line.
 
zipollini said:
David Tubb says that you need to be able to weigh to +/- one kernal of H4350 which equals .03 grains. Get the Sartorius and a cheap trickler or spring for a Prometheus. That level of precision won't show up at the 2-300 yard line but should effect your SD and group size at the 1000yd line.
Spot on IMHO
Wayne.
 
I'm not convinced that it's necessary to weigh that accurately.

Have you ever shot your rifle over a blanket or sheet? I've seen too many unburnt kernels to think that it's that critical.

I'm not saying that the same amount aren't getting burnt but I'm gonna need more proof before I fork out the cash. Too many tiny groups getten shot from using the ole 505.
(Sam shoots at Piedmond in NC) though he's probably shot records at every range.

Jim
 
ridgeway said:
in2deep said:
Devil's advocate:

Sam Hall shoots little bitty 600 yard records at Williamsport using an old beam scale. Most are accurate to within a couple individual grains of powder once you get used to them.

A digital may help you load a little faster but probably won't make you shoot any more accurately.
I totally agree with you! I use a gem pro digital currently, but have a tuned beam scale in the works. The price of the lab grade scales is ridiculous. Sure, they are accurate, but how accurate do you truthfully need to weigh powder?

At 600 yards, it depends on what you are doing and the cartridge you are firing. If you are shooting a cartridge that uses, say, 25 grains of powder then your RCBS scale is only accurate to 0.4% of your charge. If you are using a 47 grain charge, then you are 0.21% of the total charge. What difference does that make? in a 308 (47 grains) it makes about 5 fps for a charge difference of 0.1 grain (+ or - .05 grains accuracy). In a 223, the difference is about twice that.

Here is the hard part: If we take the velocity variation from not being able to tell the exact charge and compute it with the velocity variation caused by other issues (variations in case volume, primer flash differences, bullet variations, etc.) we can estimate the realistic best ES and SD we will get.

For example if we had an extreme spread of 5 fps from cases and 3 fps from primers, 2 from bullets, and 1 from seating depths, then the ES prediction would look like this:

ES = Sqrt(5^2+5^2+3^2+2^2+1^2) = sqrt(25+25+9+4+1) = sqrt(64) = 8

Without any variance from powder charges: sqrt(39) = 6.25

As this is an example with made-up numbers, let's look at real world numbers: my 155 grain load runs about 47 grains of powder and the ES (as measured over a 10 shot string ) is 10 fps with an SD of a touch over 4.

In my case, an ES of 10 is plenty good enough for that load (I don't shoot it past 600 yards and only for F-class), so the lab-grade scale isn't going to make a huge difference.

If I were shooting a smaller target, or for group it would be worth the expense of the lab scale even though it will only likely make a 1-2 fps difference in my ES. Likewise, if I were shooting a 223, then the ES prediction would reduce from about 11.8 to 6.25. That kind of difference would keep me up at night!

Truthfully, I've struggled with the question of "how accurate do my charges have to be?" My answer is this: I have bigger fish to fry before I invest 900+ dollars into a scale. I don't measure my case volumes, I don't weigh my primers, and I don't have a really good setup, but my rifle and ammo are more than capable of shooting cleans in my chosen game, and, for that matter, they are accurate enough to clean X's. I just wish I were!

Whatever you decide, in the end, it is your faith in your rifle and ammo that can make or break you. In my case, I know from repeated experience that I have everything I need to shoot outstanding scores, I just need to learn how to shoot more consistently.
 
I don't see a kernel or two grns effecting speed unless your on the edge of a speed hump. In fact I have seen slower speeds over the chrony during testing while increasing charges til I get to another hump. Right now two of my barrels have a margin of .5 grn for accuracy which is in a lull for speed. I can add more powder to get over the hump but the next node isn't as accurate. It seems that I can't get the top speed and accuracy node to hit at the same time.

Am I the only one experiencing this type of thing? If so, maybe I need a better scale. :o

Jim
 
Jim,

In my rifle, the max charge and best accuracy only occur together with a very small number of bullets. For example, the "high" node is a touch too hot for my rifle with 155's (I'm running 1.4 grains below max). With 168's, I have to slow them down a bit. 175's can almost go full steam ahead. 185's I can't get quite enough velocity to make them work at the "high" node. 200's are amazing right at the hottest charge I'm willing to run. 210's have to be slowed down a full grain from max. Based on my predictions, a 215 grain bullet would be at a node velocity right near max, and 230's would have to be slowed down.

Unfortunately for me, I don't have enough twist to make the 215 and 230 grian hybrids work - maybe next barrel.

I've never seen a speed "hump" as you describe. Any time I change charge, I get a speed change until I get to the point of not burning all of the powder.
 
Try to get ahold of David Tubb's DVD titled "The Tubb 2000 (T2K)" In section 4 of the 2nd DVD he takes you thru his reloading regime for his 6XC loads. Very, very informative. He uses a Prometheus gen 1 in the video. One kernal sensitivity.

You can order the above video here for $ 24.95. Worth every penny.

http://www.davidtubb.com/dvd-the-t2k

You will want this one too.

http://www.davidtubb.com/dvd-modern-match-rifle

Great video on the Prometheus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6scLPhkT-8w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sqNcs-uWzY&NR=1
 
I guess the question is "How anal do you want to get?" Do you buy your bullets by the thousands to get the same lot number,do you weigh sort those bullets, sort by base to ogive and bearing length, do you trim all the meplats, do you point the bullets, then trim again? Same question goes for your brass prep, the primers you buy, (hell, I used to weigh primers!) also the powder. When you finally put all the components together do you check each one and sort them by concentricity?

I used to do all that and more and after a couple of years of keeping records I found out that yes it made a minute difference, but once you enter the human variable it just wasn't worth all the effort . At least not for me.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you don't intend to do all that and more that thousand dollar scale won't make that much difference.

Danny
 
AWLEAPHART said:
What do you guys think about the Sartorius Magnetic GD503 scale? Is it really worth the money, or should I just keep on using my RCBS scale. I was thinking about purchasing one but the cost is high and will it make that much of a difference at the 600 yards.
Thanks Anthony

What are your es and sd numbers like now? Are you suffering from vertical that might be your loads...I guess the question is...have you got anything for the new scale to fix or improve on?

Reading Lauries posts on .233 in FTR, he states that the load is sensitive to the kernel, and the time factor to load is significant, so there are definitely some load combinations where I could see a scale of this price and quality a benefit (accurate and fast/er).

Good luck
 
Pre-GD503, I was capable of producing loads that would generally give me S.D.'s in the low to mid teens, at best. This was using any number of scales, loading techniques, etc...

Using a GD503 immediately helped me to bring my S.D.'s into mid-single digits. My vertical grouping immediately tightened up, all other factors being unchanged. And I can produce these loads pretty quickly. Certainly faster I could load to the best of my ability using a beam scale.

Now, that's on me. I *personally* was not capable of producing loads with that kind of tolerance with the scales, tools, and loading skill that I had. For whatever reason. Probably my technique sucked.

I have heard (and even seen) plenty of instances where guys can produce that kind of tolerance using beam scales, or even a salt shaker and a coffee can (ok, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit on the coffee can/shaker bit).

The point I am trying to make is, it was was worth every bit of $900 for me. It improved my ability to produce precision loads and it improved my shooting. When things don't go right at the range, I don't worry in the slightest about my powder charge being off. So, I've removed a factor from the equation, simplifying things so that I can concentrate on things that I do while shooting, rather than having that little niggling concern in the back of head wondering if I made a mistake with my powder charge.

I don't load down to the kernel level (though the GD503 is certainly capable). .05 works fine for me and the GD503 is capable of holding that resolution over weeks or months at a time. Last time I checked, after my scale had been sitting on the table, powered on and untouched for over a month, it had drifted less .02gn. My GemPro, great as it is, can drift that much after just a few weighings, meaning I have to re-tare constantly.

Your mileage may vary. If you are already capable of consistently producing loads with single-digit E.S. and, more importantly, single-digit S.D., then I would probably stick with what you are doing; I don't think a $900 GD503 is going to buy you a lot. But if you are struggling to produce those consistent loads, then it might be worth the investment.
 
Jay,

You are still running the 6BR improved aren't you? With the charges as small as they are, I think you might be making an apples to oranges comparison when you compare your loads to others. I can get single-digit SD's in my 308, which is a much bigger charge, using my old RCBS digital scale. If I tried the same thing with a 30 grain charge, I might be looking at SD's in the teens also.

Yes, in case you are wondering, I do use a technique to try to "group" my charges within the precision of the scale.

BTW, a salt shaker and coffee can gives good ES and SD in 50 BMG ;)
 
I run a 6 Dasher, a .260AI, a 7WSM and a .270Win. The Dasher and the .260AI are my competition rifles.

I had the same experience loading more my .260AI, which is a bigger charge as well. I know of at least a couple competitors who shoot .308's that use the GD503 for similar reasons.

It might be that the .308 is less sensitive powder charge than the 6BR or others. I can't say cause I don't shoot it currently. I don't think it is a general truism to say that a cartridge that takes a larger charge is always less sensitive or easier to load for. I happen to know another competitor who shoots a 6 Dasher who drops powder directly from a Harrell's and has shot many, many cleans, including a national record at 800 yards. His loads produce low S.D.'s as well.

At any rate, I don't think the issue has to do so much with what you are shooting, as your ability and technique in the loading room. I wasn't able to produce satisfactory S.D.'s for my .260AI with a GemPro (consistently), but can with a GD503. Maybe if I did something differently in the loading room, I could have done so with the GemPro or some other device, but I really don't know what I could have done differently. I was as careful as I knew how to be. Solving the problem by selling some unused equipment and spending it on a GD503, was worth it for me.

FYI, I hope it's coming through that I am not advocating that everyone run out and spend $900 on a GD503 and you'll immediately be a top level shooter. It's just another tool that helps to fix a particular problem. If you don't have that problem, then I wouldn't worry about it- go spend $900 on something else more fun.

Busdriver said:
Jay,

You are still running the 6BR improved aren't you? With the charges as small as they are, I think you might be making an apples to oranges comparison when you compare your loads to others. I can get single-digit SD's in my 308, which is a much bigger charge, using my old RCBS digital scale. If I tried the same thing with a 30 grain charge, I might be looking at SD's in the teens also.

Yes, in case you are wondering, I do use a technique to try to "group" my charges within the precision of the scale.

BTW, a salt shaker and coffee can gives good ES and SD in 50 BMG ;)
 
Thanks Jay,

I have always assumed that larger charges were more tolerant - I guess I'll have to re-evaluate that theory.

I do know that I had one load in the 308 that was touchy. It shot well most of the time, but it completely fell apart too. I've recently decided that it wasn't really a good load and gave it the boot.

I still have some testing to do, but I'm really looking forward to next year when I get to wring the "new" load out.
 
Over the past 10 years I have used several lower priced electronic scales, the RCBS Chragemaster, and beam scales. I now use the GD503 and trickle up with an Omega powder trickler. For me, this is the best set-up I've used. Accuracy and speed is outstanding. I use a Redding 3BR to throw the initial charge.

Here's a video someone posted on You Tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfl9C0-5zYw&feature=related
 

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