Salt Bath Nitriding???

[ncboiler]

Haven't done an action...probably won't. Did a barrel though! They recommend that if you do a barrel, do a brand-spanking-new chambered one; or, as I did: Break a brand-spanking-new one in, clean the dickens out of it, and then submit it for the SBN treatment. However, my recommendation now, after having done that, is if you're wanting to do a barrel...use an old one...one that's been shot out!!! IMO, then you won't be out so much when you have to throw it away!!

Dan

Yep, cleaning the barrel after the treatment is a real PITA! Don't know that I'll do another barrel but they sure do clean up nice when it's time (after the initial cleaning)

 

[dannyjbiggs]

Yep, cleaning the barrel after the treatment is a real PITA! Don't know that I'll do another barrel but they sure do clean up nice when it's time (after the initial cleaning)

Finally, after exhausting all normal cleaning methods, a little PO'ed, I resorted to about 2 tubes of Ioso and bronze brushes before my Hawkeye said it was clean. However, I musta brushed out all the accuracy along the way.

Dan

 

[Concha]

The SS actions are 17-4 and the CM is 4140 both falling in the mid 30's of Rockwell C scale as finished actions. Nitriding would be just over 1000* Fahrenheit.
4140 anneals at approx 1500* F and is stable to around the Nitriding temp. I would suspect a jig is used to avoid walking but not sure. For close tolerences everything I have seen in CM needed to be ground due to minor distortions. 17-4......nope I don't think they will do a 17-4 action. Could be wrong but.....

 

[Robert]

Robert, I mentioned Bat only, no other brands. Some brands of receivers will not be melonite treated and is a choice made by the treating company after discourse with the receiver mfg.

Understood, Butch. I think the process should be explaised with advantages and dusadvantages, reason why some steels and treatments MIGHT need it; some not. There is most certainly members who could do that with better wors than mines.

One thing is for me sure: If one does not know what is the alloy wanted to be treated ,better to don"t have it processed.
R.G.C

 

[hogpatrol]

I sent my barrels to Rock Creek and they send them out when they get a batch. A couple patches down the bore to verify nothing in them and they were ready to shoot , no two hour scrub a dub, PITA cleaning like previous ones sent directly to the nitrider and a better price too. Would use them again in a heartbeat.

 

[shortgrass]

Finally, after exhausting all normal cleaning methods, a little PO'ed, I resorted to about 2 tubes of Ioso and bronze brushes before my Hawkeye said it was clean. However, I musta brushed out all the accuracy along the way.

Dan

A 2 1/2 gal. bucket of boiling hot water, a bit of dish soap, enough to 'suds it up' a bit, a coated rod, bronze brush, a few patches and a whistling tea kettle to rinse with, oil the bore with a soaked patch or two and you're done in 15-20 minutes,,,, ready to lub the threads and install on the action.

 

[JRS]

I have a Bat action that is bedded to a PR&T stock.

I was considering sending the action out to get Nitrided, my question is will this mess with the existing bedding job, bolt fitment, threads?????

I understand this isn`t a coating but a process that the surface of the material goes through.

I have seen bolts done and not actions, they seem to function for their owners just fine.

Again my concern is threads, bolt and bedding.

Can someone please ease my mind on doing this..............


Phil.

If its stainless steel, why have it Nitrided?

 

[butchlambert]

Haven't done an action...probably won't. Did a barrel though! They recommend that if you do a barrel, do a brand-spanking-new chambered one; or, as I did: Break a brand-spanking-new one in, clean the dickens out of it, and then submit it for the SBN treatment. However, my recommendation now, after having done that, is if you're wanting to do a barrel...use an old one...one that's been shot out!!! IMO, then you won't be out so much when you have to throw it away!!

Dan

You're a comedian.

 

[austinwft]

If its stainless steel, why have it Nitrided?

Don't.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...face-treatment-for-barrels-bolts-and-actions/

• But are there negatives? According to Joel, “with stainless barrels, Melonite processing may reduce corrosion resistance slightly.

I have found the above to be true only that the corrosion resistance is reduced more than just slightly.

Googling "Smith & Wesson rust" will find you plenty of stories related to the rusting of melonited M&P Stainless Steel slides.

 

[JRS]

Don't.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...face-treatment-for-barrels-bolts-and-actions/

• But are there negatives? According to Joel, “with stainless barrels, Melonite processing may reduce corrosion resistance slightly.

I have found the above to be true only that the corrosion resistance is reduced more than just slightly.

Googling "Smith & Wesson rust" will find you plenty of stories related to the rusting of melonited M&P Stainless Steel slides.

That is my reason for asking. Nitride improves corrosion resistance somewhat, on carbon or low alloy steels, but it degrades the corrosion resistance of stainless steels, which depend on a chromium oxide passive layer.

 

[butchlambert]

If its stainless steel, why have it Nitrided?

Do you know the reason for nitride?

 

[JRS]

Do you know the reason for nitride?

Hardness and abrasion resistance, Butch?

 

[butchlambert]

1. This I posted some time ago. This comes up from time to time and you can find it using the search function.
   
   You may find this interesting, see e-mail below.
   
   I was the Armorer for the Army Reserve Shooting Team for over a decade so I do have quite a bit of experience with both processes.
   
   As I am sure you know, most G.I. barrels are made from chrome molly steel which is more susceptible to corrosion than stainless steel. Chrome lining is used on G.I. bores both to extend their shooting life and to protect them from corrosion that can be a problem in battlefield conditions where maintenance is sometimes sporadic or insufficient. Chrome lining does a pretty good job of protecting battlefield weapons. One of the objections to chrome lining is that it is thought to decrease accuracy. This seems to be a valid criticism and is backed up by machine rest tests I have conducted of identical barrels (same manufacturer but half chrome lined and half not).
   
   As you are aware most barrel "wear" is in the throat area. So eventually the hot gasses from the burning of the gunpowder will eat thru the chrome lining at the throat. It is rumored that at this point accuracy will plummet but I have not found that to be true. (Or if true, it is overstated or maybe only occurs for that short period when there is both chrome and bare steel in the throat simultaneously - just at the point of initial break thru.) Chrome lined barrels can continue to shoot well for thousands of rounds after the bare barrel steel at the back of the barrel (throat) has been exposed due to erosion of the chrome lining. Another criticism of chrome lining is that it can flake off later in the life of the barrel resulting in poor accuracy. Obviously, this could also cause maintenance problems if the user is depending on the chrome to ward off corrosion and thus is careless in his bore cleaning. If corrosion is allowed to occur pitting will result and that will ruin accuracy for sure.
   
   Barrel pitting was one of the reasons I got involved in Salt Bath Nitriding. I was loosing nearly as many expensive match grade barrels to improper maintenance (causing pitting) as I was to wear out. This was under the relatively benign target shooting conditions. Obviously given the reputation of degraded accuracy, using chrome lining wasn't an option. So for the past couple of years I have been Salt Bath Nitriding all of my match barrels and haven't had a single one exhibit any pitting. During that 2 yr. period shooters have put anywhere from a few hundred rounds to thousands of rounds on said barrels. I don't know how long the coating will persist so at this point I am still evaluating it as a preservative. I don't know what will happen in another year or two when these barrels get more wear on them. Salt Bath Nitriding goes on both inside of the bore and on the outside surface. So, instead of 2 manufacturing steps you have combined them into one. Salt Bath Nitriding doesn't degrade accuracy one iota, unlike chrome lining. This was the first thing that I verified when I began using the process. I broke in a bunch of barrels and then machine rest tested them for group. I recorded and kept the targets, cleaned up the barrels, and sent them to MMi TruTec for the Isonite process. When they came back I reassembled them on the same receivers with the same torque settings, same bolt carrier assemblies, same flash suppressors, etc. Then they were retested with the same ammo lots. NO degradation in accuracy and about a 1% increase in muzzle velocity.
   
   Chrome lined barrels seem to clean up rather easily after a range session. I found the ease of cleaning of Isonite coated barrels to be similar to chrome lined barrels. The Isonite barrels clean up the easiest of any non chrome lined barrels I have ever used. Isonite can be applied to either stainless or chrome molly but the factory needs to know what steel you are sending them because the application process varies a bit. Again, I only have about 2 yr. of cleaning experience with Salt Bath Nitrided barrels. I don't know if the ease of cleaning will continue as the barrels get more rounds on them. Generally speaking, most non coated barrels get harder to clean later in life. Although stainless has a reputation of being corrosion resistant it isn't corrosion proof (I have had plenty of them return pitted) so I coat both my C.M. and my SS barrels. The Isonite on the outside of the stainless barrels cuts reflection down so my shooters like it.
   
   I mentioned flaking of chrome lining inside the bore. Joel Kendrick is my contact at MMi TruTec, the company in Arkansas that does my Salt Bath Nitriding (they call it Isonite). He was mentioning using the Salt Bath Nitriding inside the bore prior to chrome lining it to get a better adhesion. He is currently working with one of the military contractors (maybe F.N., but don't quote me on that) relative to this process. He has given me permission to give out his contact information so I have cc'd him in my reply to you. He can give you the specifics of any testing and evaluation that has been done relative to this process and can give you quotes, etc. should you just be interested in the Isonite by itself as I use it.
   
   One last quick note on chrome lining. Such barrels have the reputation of changing point of impact when heated up. I have found this to be very true. It may be due to the way the different metals (chrome molly and chrome) expand inside the bore. What ever the reason, it does happen and, again, this was verified on a state of the art machine rest. Isonite doesn't exhibit this characteristic.
   
   I am sure you are well aware of some of the things I covered. Lacking specific questions, I just sort of used a shotgun approach which ended up being fairly long. If I left anything unanswered please feel free to get back to me. I have enabled my Spam Blocker to allow your e-mails to come in with out the automated hate responses that Earth Link sends out. I am sure Joel would also be glad to clarify the technical aspects of the Salt Bath Nitriding process. So far I am very pleased with it.
   
   Best of luck!

 

[butchlambert]

Hardness and abrasion resistance, Butch?

You are correct and it works great on 416R stainless barrels.

 

[JRS]

You are correct and it works great on 416R stainless barrels.

Thanks, Butch!

I understand, and can see the benefit by having the bore of a barrel treated, but don't understand why one would want to have a stainless steel action nitrided, unless the action was subjected to a harsh environment day in and day out.

 

[butchlambert]

Thanks, Butch!

I understand, and can see the benefit by having the bore of a barrel treated, but don't understand why one would want to have a stainless steel action nitrided, unless the action was subjected to a harsh environment day in and day out.

It will make the bolt operation very slick. Some customs with their tight tolerance between the bolt and raceway inhibits smoothness.

 

[L.Sherm]

I myself have wondered about nitriding, one question I have does it change the bore and groove demensions a tad?

 

[JRS]

It will make the bolt operation very slick. Some customs with their tight tolerance between the bolt and raceway inhibits smoothness.

Personally, Butch, if I needed/wanted slickness on my bolt, I would send it to ROBAR and have them apply their NP3 finish on it, and leave my action as is. The lubricity offered by the NP3 finish really has no equal. The lifetime guarantee can't be beat

 

[butchlambert]

I myself have wondered about nitriding, one question I have does it change the bore and groove demensions a tad?

I have Deltronic pins in sets of 25 pins for ea. caliber I work with. I have not been able to see a difference with my pins. They are in .0001 increments.

JRS, that may work well.

 

[JRS]

I myself have wondered about nitriding, one question I have does it change the bore and groove demensions a tad?

With the process used for nitriding, I seriously doubt you could accurately measure a difference.