Safe to shoot with zero headspace?

['Freak]

If base to shoulder datum measurements all check the same and this common length results in a truly zero headspace or reasonable, minimal shoulder setback on closing of the bolt then with nothing varying one shot to the next it ought not matter into where the bullets are going to impact. Best grease the working surfaces.

But, if base to shoulder datum is not exactly the same then neither is the amount of shoulder setback on closing of the bolt. The greater the shoulder setback the greater the shove the bolt has to put on the base of the case so the greater the stress, now also in varying amounts, that’s being dumped back into the action.

So, where stress levels were consistently minimal, or at least consistent, but now due to varying base to shoulder datum lengths it’ll take varying degrees of bolt shoving on the case to cram each of those varying lengths into the same amount of space so that now with varying stress levels being thrown back at the action, how is all this variance not going to affect where the bullets will impact?

Seems the choices are to either diligently maintain the brass so it’ll all always fit the chamber exactly the same, or if too lazy/not all that diligent then to me it’s a whole lot easier to bump back the shoulders to maintain a clearance of nearly none but still have some on up to ~ .002” between the bolt face and base of the case. The base to shoulder datum length can vary that same amount and still not stress the action on closing of the bolt.

 

[swampshooter]

For sure, lube the backside of the locking lugs, the cocking cam and the primary extraction cam. If there is resistance to closing the bolt then the cams that assist the bolt closing will have considerable force applied to them. Lubing the backside of the locking lugs is the only way that I know of to lubricate this surface. Good luck on your PD hunt. I'll be going middle of May.

 

[Brians356]

I'm not concerned about a bolt closure with some "resistance" as long as the lugs are greased (as they always should be.) I'm only jealous of the OP going PD hunting with a 6mm Rem! I have an original R-700 Varmint Special in 6mm Rem from the late 70s, bought used in a pawn shop, and have never yet fired it "in anger" as it were. What bullet and powder are you using on PDs?

 

[Glocksig]

I'm not concerned about a bolt closure with some "resistance" as long as the lugs are greased (as they always should be.) I'm only jealous of the OP going PD hunting with a 6mm Rem! I have an original R-700 Varmint Special in 6mm Rem from the late 70s, bought used in a pawn shop, and have never yet fired it "in anger" as it were. What bullet and powder are you using on PDs?

I'm using 80g Berger Varmint match bullets in front of RL-19. It can reach out there for sure. My "short" range gun is a White Oak 204 ruger upper with a 26" pac nor barrel. I'll confess my hit rate is higher with the 204, partly because I shoot it shorter but more because it's such a flat shooter. Getting accurate ranges can be difficult in featureless terrain. This year however I'm bringin out a g7 br2 with my ballistics built in, I suspect that will help especially with the 6mm.

 

[bigedp51]

Another bit of poor advice is to spray brake cleaner into an action (which I hope is never done with the action still in the stock). That's what action cleaning tools, and chamber swabs are for. Too much chance of getting crap into the trigger.
I find it hard to believe a veteran shooter, especially one who delved in Benchrest (capital "B") does not keep his action lubed. At a match, one simply does not go to the line without his bolt lube. I often wonder why our experiences are worlds apart?

LHSmith

This is not meant to be insulting to you or anyone here, but there are two sides to every story. When I hunted in cold weather the minimum amount of oil and grease was applied to my hunting firearms. And this was to prevent stiff operation when working the action and screwing up hunting.

On the flip side of this discussion a Remington techrep once told me that I could apply as much oil and grease to my Remington firearms as I wanted to.........then wipe off as much as possible and there would be plenty of lube left on the metal to properly lube the rifle.

And since owning AR15 rifles we have been told they run better wet by the people running AR15 training camps. I tried it and didn't like the smell of burning motor oil mixed with transmission fluid and STP.

Then the senior British armourer in the UK told us in our Enfield rifle forum to make sure we greased our locking lugs when we were neck sizing only to prevent wear and damage to the lugs and lug recesses.

So here is what I do know for sure, if you full length resize you need far less lube on your locking lugs than you do if you neck size only. So people who neck size only should always grease, lube, oil their locking lugs and its up to the shooter to pick the type lube that serves them best.
(I use Super Lube and its slipperier than snot on a door knob) ;D

And anyone who owns a M1 Garand knows they are to grease the locking lugs and anything else that slides.

 

[Brians356]

Glocksig,

Check out Hodgdon Superformance powder in 6mm Rem, for which it seems ideal - 100 to 150 fps faster than any other powder behind many bullet weights. Hodgdon lists 3581 fps behind 80-gr bullet from a 24-in tube. Or 3812 fps behind a 70-grainer. I have been working up a coyote / chuck load using 70-gr TNT which should really knock their socks off.

 

[Glocksig]

I'll have to take a look at it, I've only got about 200 rounds worth of RL-19 left. I typically shoot a relatively mild load.

 

[Brians356]

I'll have to take a look at it, I've only got about 200 rounds worth of RL-19 left. I typically shoot a relatively mild load.

Well, with a powder that efficient, you can back off from max pressure and still get good velocity. But it might not be as accurate in any case as your RE-19. I note also that RE-17 is a good choice for 80-gr bullet (Alliant lists 3500 fps max, 130 more than for RE-19), as well as a slew of other powders like 4350 etc.

 

[waldo1979]

I lube all the gas rings, contact points on the BCG and the firing pin ramp. I don't lube the lugs or sides of the BCG.

Wouldn't a "0" clearance case have the possibility of becoming a stuck case?

 

[dragman]

MY opinion:
Chamber - DRY
Shoulder - bumped back .001 some guns I leave them right on
Bolt - Just a small amount of lube on the lugs

Never has given me any problem.

 

[searcher]

A very light amount of resistance - and I mean LIGHT - is usually optimum for accuracy and brass life. Do lube your bolt lugs and unless you have to "heavy hand" the bolt closure, no problem.

 

[K22]

This is one of the reason (see original post - problematic chambering ), among others, that I stopped neck sizing years ago based on a recommendation of a rifle smith and seasoned bench rest shooter.

Since I'm primarily a hunter (varmints / predators / big game) having reliable reloads is just as important to me as accuracy. With properly full size case I never have to worry about functionality in the field.

After years of full sizing thousands of cases with a .001 to 002" shoulder bump for bolt rifles I can positively attest that I have not experienced any loss of case life or accuracy with full sizing in this manner as opposed to neck sizing. My old neck sizing dies now serve as paper weights. Like a lot of novice reloaders in the 70's, I use to believe that neck sizing produced longer case life and more accurate reloads. My experience has not found this not to be true when compared to properly full sized cases.

Using a light coat of lube (I use Shooter's Choice lug lube) on lugs is something my rifle smith recommended to reduce wear of the lugs. I can't swear that it does or doesn't work but I figured he knows a lot more about it than me since he's been building precision rifles for over 30+ years so I follow his advice.

 

[dalej]

So I just finished loading 300 rounds of 6mm Remington for an upcoming prairie dog trip and when I chamber the new rounds I get resistance on the close. Pop them out and you can see a couple horizontal lines on the shoulder, from rubbing when the bolt cams over and locks. In a senior moment I forgot to run the brass through my chamber after I prepped it. I've always neck sized but it finally looks like the shoulder has to be bumped back a bit.

My question is this, can I safely fire these rounds in an essentially "zero" headspace condition or do I need to pull them all and bump them back a bit?

Thanks :-[

You might be able to find a Redding body die for your 6mm Rem. They work with loaded rounds. Another option might be a 7X57 full length sizer with de-capping stem removed.
Is the brass new? Could be cartridge base irregularities causing problem. A Wilson case trimmer with cartridge reversed will shave bases uniform. Make sure primers are slightly counter-sunk before attempting base shaving.
Had a look at some new / vintage 6mm RP brass that had some nasty base protrusions, enough material to cause chambering problems.
I always lube bolt lugs, just a light coating.

 

[Brians356]

You might be able to find a Redding body die for your 6mm Rem.

Anywhere that sells Redding dies, i.e. pretty much everywhere, e.g.:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/404936/redding-body-die-6mm-remington?cm_vc=ProductFinding

 

[justpassinthru]

Redding part number 77115 is for a type S full length bushing die for the 6mm Remington.
According to this page, http://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/118-type-s-bushing-dies when the internal parts are removed, these dies may be used for a body die. I just don't see a reason to buy so many dies when one will do it all. I have all of mine adjusted to slightly bump the shoulder on each resizing because I don't like feeling any resistance when closing the bolt.
From the above page:
Note: By removing the bushing and all internal parts, the Type-S full bushing die may also be used as a body die.

 

[amlevin]

Redding part number 77115 is for a type S full length bushing die for the 6mm Remington.
According to this page, http://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/118-type-s-bushing-dies when the internal parts are removed, these dies may be used for a body die. I just don't see a reason to buy so many dies when one will do it all. I have all of mine adjusted to slightly bump the shoulder on each resizing because I don't like feeling any resistance when closing the bolt.
From the above page:
Note: By removing the bushing and all internal parts, the Type-S full bushing die may also be used as a body die.

You're right--------if you use Redding S-Dies.

I prefer their Competition Die Sets and they come with the Body die for use only when you feel the need to bump of F/L size.

 

[Brians356]

I just don't see a reason to buy so many dies when one will do it all.
Note: By removing the bushing and all internal parts, the Type-S full bushing die may also be used as a body die.

It's a PITA to disassemble an S-Die just to convert it to a body die. And of course to reassemble it later as a FL bushing die.

The regular Redding Body Die is too cheap, and my remaining time is worth too much.

 

[hogan]

The only chamber dimension that needs clearance is the neck.

Think about it... Neck clearance is what releases bullet. Ctg case with -0- headspace in the OAL dimension is PERFECT! Hunting rifles are something else, maybe you have concern for debris in chamber so need a couple thousandths OAL shorter. Then again... most factory ammo and all virgin brass is typically made UNDERsized for easy chambering....


Want the minimum brass "growth" and there for longest brass life? Cut your chamber to Go-gauge plus .0005" or cut it to actual length of your unfired cases. Lots of brass will measure far under Go-gauge OAL.


Best accuracy will be found from a min-OAL chamber. If you have any kind of rifling at all to work with, you want minimum case stretch at each firing.



As for lubrication? For sure you want a dry, non-lubed chamber. For sure you don't want to lube your ammunition. Want some quality grease like mobil 1 red stuff from grease gun tubes to be present on receiver lugs and rear bolt lugs.


I honestly wonder what business guys have doing any handloading before they understand the dynamic variables of the process. Lots more at stake here than just "getting a load". Looks to me like half the guys posting here don't own even one reloading manual, or if they do; have never read it.

 

[Brians356]

I honestly wonder what business guys have doing any handloading before they understand the dynamic variables of the process. Lots more at stake here than just "getting a load". Looks to me like half the guys posting here don't own even one reloading manual, or if they do; have never read it.

You know, you really should feel free to express yourself here. Don't sugarcoat it - we can cope with disparagement.

 

[bigedp51]

I would be willing to bet that 95% of the people reading these posting at this form do not own custom made benchrest rifles.

The OP asking this question might be wondering why the instructions for his full length die tells him to make hard contact with the shell holder.

In these forums the full length resizers talk about minimum shoulder bump.

And the neck sizers talk about snug fitting cases and resistance when closing the bolt.

And you wonder why people are confused about resizing cartridge cases.

The OP needs to know that there is nothing wrong with zero headspace as long as he lubes his locking lugs.

I myself prefer full length resizing and a little head clearance especially when firing long bursts from my Enfield rifles to help prevent jamming.

I will also add that you shouldn't listen to rap music when reloading like CatShooter does, it causes varying cartridge case headspace lengths.