SAC Bushings—excellent quality, interesting results

[Hohn]

I generally do my loading experiments in .223 and then apply what I like to larger calibers.

I’ve been running a honed Forster FL sizer for awhile now and it gives really consistent results. But I got the bug to try to dabble with 20 Practical someday, so I figured it was a good time to dabble with a bushing die In 223 and maybe grab some smaller bushings later.

@urbanrifleman to the rescue with a Wilson FL 223 die in stock. A few days later, My SAC .246 bushing arrives.

The first interesting observation: I can start my fired case necks (0.254) into the bushing very easily by hand.

Second observation: the nitrided finish on these bushings is fantastic—they are nearly mirror smooth. Only DLC could really be better, but it’s totally unnecessary here. Sizing is nearly effortless.

Third observation: the bushings have significant taper to them. A case sized with the 0.246 bushing while measure a half thousandth more at the mouth due to springback. But the neck will measure fired diameter near the base (0.254 in my case). So it’s not just a generous inlet chamfer that allows the case neck to start into the bushing so well– it’s a generous taper.

This taper likely explains why the SAC bushings are known to avoid the runout induction commonly associate with bushings from Redding and RCBS.

I believe the Wilson bushings are also tapered, but only 0.003” per the wilson literature, so quite a bit less aggressive taper than the SAC.


In theory, this unsized neck base allows the donut to stay away from the bullet and also centers the case within the chamber. This should preserve the theoretical benefit of neck sizing while actually FL sizing.

Usually you see people ditching bushings for honed foresters and not the other way around. But I think this way of dong bushings is a better mousetrap. Now, let’s see if anything on target shows up.

 

[divingin]

So how much taper do they put into their bushings? .003" sounds like a bunch, and you're saying the SAC bushings have more?

 

[JayHHI6818]

I ordered one few months ago and love it. Less than .001 runout

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I say go with the 21st century setup and forget all this taper nonsense. Taper in a bushing is a defect, not a desired quality.

 

[Clancy]

Fourth observation….. this is a $360 sizing die from a company not known for their sizing dies.

Hard pass.

 

[Corjack]

Only fault I can find with SAC bushings and dies, are once you buy one and use it, you gotta then replace all your stuff with SAC bushings and dies.

 

[jepp2]

Taper in a bushing is a defect, not a desired quality.

Fourth observation….. this is a $360 sizing die from a company not known for their sizing dies.

As a person that has actually used a bushing in my Redding dies from SAC, let me clarify a couple of things.

I've spent a lot of time and $ in an effort to identify and reduce runout of loaded centerfire rifle rounds. I was appalled at the runout I experienced using Redding bushings in Redding dies. CRT bushings reduced the runout by over 50%. Eventually I started honing my FL die necks to the diameter I need them to be. But I would prefer to using bushings and not sacrifice runout.

So I watched a user review of the SAC bushings (not their entire die system as shown in post 3). The bushings have absolutely no taper in them. And my TIR using them is running is less than 0.001" (Redding was over 4- 0.006" generally). I was also experiencing with my 308 brass the phenomenon* where the case neck ends up about 0.004" under the bushing diameter. When using Redding bushings I had to size it down in two steps to avoid it from happening. Using the SAC bushing and a single step, my neck OD is the correct size.

I'm not declaring the SAC bushings the best thing since sliced bread, but this post seemed to cast doubt on them I haven't experienced.

(* per Redding)

It has come to our attention through customer calls and our own use of the bushing style sizing dies that in certain instances, a given neck sizing bushing will produce a case neck diameter that can be several thousandths of an inch smaller than the actual diameter of the bushing. This idiosyncrasy occurs when the neck diameter of the fired case is a great deal larger than the diameter of the neck sizing bushing, such as occurs when factory chambers are on the large side of the tolerance range and the brass is on the thin side. Typically, we have not noticed any problems until the case neck is reduced more than 0.008-0.010".

 

[LCazador]

Wait what? I've been using Type S dies for years with either Wilson or Redding bushings and I've never experienced any weird runnouts like described here.

 

[rijndael]

Wait what? I've been using Type S dies for years with either Wilson or Redding bushings and I've never experienced any weird runnouts like described here.

I certainly have. And when I swapped the bushing to a Wilson die, the runout disappeared.

 

[jepp2]

I've never experienced any weird runnouts like described here.

Until I started checking, I assumed all was well. But what really surprised me how much bullet runout there is using the Redding Competition bullet seating dies.

On the undersizing of the case neck, I never experienced it until I did. And my necks were on the smaller size of the range Redding advises where it can happen. I'm sizing Lilja LR 308 fired brass where the chamber neck is normal as can be.

 

[Clancy]

@jepp2

There’s a few brands of dies I like, and Redding definitely isn’t on the list. Way too many lemons. I’ve had 2 myself. They just aren’t what they used to be, or at least what I’ve heard they used to be.

 

[LCazador]

I certainly have. And when I swapped the bushing to a Wilson die, the runout disappeared.

Wilson arbor press die? If so I'd suspect a ram or shell holder misalignment in the press.

 

[JFrank]

Until I started checking, I assumed all was well. But what really surprised me how much bullet runout there is using the Redding Competition bullet seating dies.

On the undersizing of the case neck, I never experienced it until I did. And my necks were on the smaller size of the range Redding advises where it can happen. I'm sizing Lilja LR 308 fired brass where the chamber neck is normal as can be.

What is a Lilja LR 308
@Hoodoo

 

[jepp2]

What is a Lilja LR 308

Well there are AR 10's and there are LR 308's, different design rifles, built on different patterns and take different parts. So it is a gas gun with a Lilja barrel on it. That means it is a single point cut and lapped rifle barrel, I was clarifying so folks would understand I wasn't trying to size brass coming out of a barrel with an overly generous chamber neck or brass that had been fired in a machine gun. The fired neck OD to the finished sized neck OD is really nothing different than most rifles. It is the first time I have experienced where the bushing sized neck OD is about 0.004" smaller than the ID of the bushing.

 

[rijndael]

Wilson arbor press die? If so I'd suspect a ram or shell holder misalignment in the press.

No, standard threaded die.

 

[JFrank]

Well there are AR 10's and there are LR 308's, different design rifles, built on different patterns and take different parts. So it is a gas gun with a Lilja barrel on it. That means it is a single point cut and lapped rifle barrel, I was clarifying so folks would understand I wasn't trying to size brass coming out of a barrel with an overly generous chamber neck or brass that had been fired in a machine gun. The fired neck OD to the finished sized neck OD is really nothing different than most rifles. It is the first time I have experienced where the bushing sized neck OD is about 0.004" smaller than the ID of the bushing.

Ok thx for the clarification, I do find it unusual that you would see a difference of .004 in the OD of a sized neck to the ID of a bushing, I have seen perhaps 5/10,000 using a caliper but that’s the max and I do varify the bushing ID of my Wilson bushings.

 

[jepp2]

I do find it unusual that you would see a difference of .004 in the OD of a sized neck to the ID of a bushing

So did I, but clearly Redding has heard about it often enough to address. And I size down more than that in some other calibers and don't see it. Just some strange combination. BUT, I also see the same thing if I size in a FL sizing die (same undersize case neck vs the neck diameter of the die). So it isn't just a bushing issue.

I check my bushings with gage pins to confirm they are the correct diameter, some vary quite a bit from what is stamped on the bushing.

If a person was running an expander on their bushing die, they would never even know the neck was coming out of the bushing smaller than it should be.

 

[marchboom]

I have had excessive runout (.005") with Redding bushing dies (using Redding bushings) for my once fired 22-250 AI brass. Tried everything and nothing worked. Used a Forster die on once fired brass and the runout was about .0015". So now I use Forster FL dies and have them honed to the size I want. Then run the cases over a mandrel.

But I have considered trying a SAC bushing.

 

[nakneker]

Interesting thread. I bought SAC sizing dies for the 6.5x47L, 6GT and Creedmoor families. Yes I have other dies for each of those, Redding, Forster, Mighty Armory and RCBS but I wanted to try them. I have four rifles based on the 6.5x47 case, 2 based on the Creedmoor case and one based on the GT case and plan to build another GT. I’ve only used the 6.5x47 die thus far, just picked these up. There’s was zero run out in the 100 I sized. I’m interested to see the results when I take a 6.5x47 case down to .22 and .25 caliber.

I don’t think everyone needs to sell their existing dies and replace them with SAC custom dies, especially if your happy with them. It’s just fun to experiment with new products, at least I enjoy it. Always good to have companies trying to improve the tools we use.

 

[TrxR]

The other side of this question is how much runout does it take to cause any accuracy issues? I seem to remember someone did a test and induced an fair bit of run out and it didn't affect accuracy at all but I think that might of been in the bullet seating process.