SAAMI -publishing bad specs

[constructor]

On several cartridges they are giving out specs that say the ammo can be larger than the "go" gauge. Some Ammo manufacturers are producing ammo larger than the go gauge. Firearm manufacturers are building rifles based on the specs given to them by SAAMI where the bolt just closes on the go but will not chamber the ammo. If SAAMI says they are the authority and in charge of the standards in the US why are they giving out conflicting specs? Anyone that has ever tried to contact SAAMI should know they don't answer unless you pay them the $5000 membership fee. If I paid $5000 I would expect them to do their job and furnish correct specs.
This is the opening statement on their website.

SAAMI-
The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) is an association of the nation's leading manufacturers of firearms, ammunition and components. SAAMI was founded in 1926 at the request of the federal government and tasked with:

Creating and publishing industry standards for safety, interchangeability, reliability and quality

Coordinating technical data

Promoting safe and responsible firearms use

The work at SAAMI is accomplished by its committees. Technical excellence is always our goal and safety is always the prerequisite.

 

[CatShooter]

First off, SAAMI is a voluntary compliance organization - companies do NOT have to use their numbers - so they are not in charge of anything.

Second, it is common for cartridge max's to be longer than chamber mins - don't let it get your panties in a knot.
Somehow, it all works in the end.

And I don't send them any money, and they are always helpful, and I have used their research library many times in the past, and spent hours on the phone with their technical staff. They're one of the best things to happen to the industry.

 

[constructor]

If you were a manufacturer producing thousands of barrels every year and have to deal with ammo not chambering you may think a little differently. But then if you wear panties maybe you already do ;D

Anyway I think they need to review their specs relating the min and max chamber sizes to the ammo sizes.

 

[CatShooter]

If you were a manufacturer producing thousands of barrels every year and have to deal with ammo not chambering you may think a little differently. But then if you wear panties maybe you already do ;D

Anyway I think they need to review their specs relating the min and max chamber sizes to the ammo sizes.

And exactly WHO is producing thousands of barrels of ammo each year that does not chamber.

Nobody - how come? Cuz there is no problem.

This is a BS thread, by a whinning wannabee.

Or, maybe I'm wrong about it, and...

... maybe you should contact them right away and let them know that YOU, all by yourself, after 87 years, have discovered that none of their engineers know doodlie squat about ammunition, and how screwed up their data banks are, and how they are risking thousands of lives every day, and YOU, all by yourself, can help them see the error of their ways... ya' think??

I think you should do that, while I unknot my panties

 

[constructor]

"And exactly WHO is producing thousands of barrels of ammo each year that does not chamber."

I don't know much about thousands of barrels of ammo. That's a different kind of barrel than what I was talking about.

CMT produces AR15 bolts to mil spec as I am sure Colt and FN and Microbest does. Others like LMT are as much as .005 smaller because of this problem. We are caught in the middle because if we machine bolts to mil spec some ammo will not chamber. Some of Hornadys ammo is larger than the "go" gauges. In a bolt gun it doesn't matter because you can cram it in. In an AR it causes problems.
Anyone that can read can see on the SAAMI specs that there could be problems. Firearm manufactures can not just make the chamber longer because then they will close on a "no-go" and be refused by smiths or customers and may cause blown primers when using ammo that is the correct size. IF all ammo manufacturers took it upon themselves to size the ammo .001 under the "go" then all would work fine. Unfortunately that is not the case.

 

[Scott Harris]

constructor, can you provide a link where you think the max allowed cartridge is larger than the minimum allowed chamber? I don't recall seeing that for the chambers I've looked at. That is exactly the situation SAAMI standards are trying to avoid.

 

[constructor]

On the 308 for example. The go gauge is 1.630" and the no-go is 1.634", only .004" apart.
The ammo can be from 1.627-1.634 which is as large as the no-go. How can you make a chamber fit between the go and no-go and still chamber ammo if it can be 1.634"?
If all ammo manufacturers make the ammo 1.629-1.627 that would be fine.

On the 223, The go is 1.4636", the no go is 1.4666". The max ammo size is 1.4666" How does that fit in a 1.4636 chamber?

 

[CatShooter]

Where is all the ammo that has been returned because it doesn't fit in rifles?

Inquiring minds want to know (so I can go get it and put it my rifle )

 

[constructor]

Look in your panties.

 

[CatShooter]

Look in your panties.

I guess no one is having a problem with this, except you.

 

[Ggmac]

I see the max for the 223 as 1.4376 ( to the left of min ) the 308 max is listed as 1.640 again its in line with the min , just listed to the left in the print . These are chamber max Both are smaller than cart max .
The numbers given are from your prints , the way I was taught to read , not even given the allowable +\- .

 

[constructor]

I see the max for the 223 as 1.4376 ( to the left of min ) the 308 max is listed as 1.640 again its in line with the min , just listed to the left in the print . These are chamber max Both are smaller than cart max .
The numbers given are from your prints , the way I was taught to read , not even given the allowable +\- .

Right those are max chamber sizes using a "field" gauge as in when to retire the weapon. Those are not the dimensions used for "no-go" when assembling the weapon.

From Forster-


GO: Corresponds to the minimum chamber dimensions. If a rifle closes on a GO gage, the chamber will accept ammunition that is made to SAAMI’s maximum specifications. The GO gage is essential for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight, accurate and safe chamber that will accept SAAMI maximum ammo. Although the GO gage is necessary for a gunsmith or armorer, it usually has fewer applications for the collector or surplus firearms purchaser.
NO-GO: Corresponds to the maximum headspace Forster recommends for gunsmiths chambering new, bolt action rifles. This is NOT a SAAMI-maximum measurement. If a rifle closes on a NO-GO gage, it may still be within SAAMI specifications or it may have excessive headspace. To determine if there is excessive headspace, the chamber should then be checked with a FIELD gage. The NO-GO gage is a valuable tool for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight and accurate chamber.
FIELD: Corresponds to the longest safe headspace. If a rifle closes on a FIELD gage, its chamber is dangerously close to, or longer than, SAAMI’s specified maximum chamber size. If chamber headspace is excessive, the gun should be taken out of service until it has been inspected and repaired by a competent gunsmith. FIELD gages are slightly shorter than the SAAMI maximum in order to give a small safety margin.

 

[Ggmac]

You are comparing apples to oranges , on the top spec sheet it says Voluntary performance Standards
You are also comparing military cart
Saami is giving you max not no-go . Im just saying if you have personal problems either with your ammo production or barrel manufact. I would strongly suggest hiring qualified machinists and engineers . This system has been working for me forover 30 years , but Im old school ,I would not trust any print without double checking before production , even if just a couple of barrels .
If Iknew most ammo manuf were making at max ( which the bean counters will not allow ) I woul mark my barrels with the new standards for my barrels ,chambers . I DO NOT MEAN TO OFFEND , its not my nature , but SAAMI is HELPFUL and will talk or respond .

 

[constructor]

You are comparing apples to oranges , on the top spec sheet it says Voluntary performance Standards
You are also comparing military cart
Saami is giving you max not no-go . Im just saying if you have personal problems either with your ammo production or barrel manufact. I would strongly suggest hiring qualified machinists and engineers . This system has been working for me forover 30 years , but Im old school ,I would not trust any print without double checking before production , even if just a couple of barrels .
If Iknew most ammo manuf were making at max ( which the bean counters will not allow ) I woul mark my barrels with the new standards for my barrels ,chambers . I DO NOT MEAN TO OFFEND , its not my nature , but SAAMI is HELPFUL and will talk or respond .

It really says "SAAMI voluntary performance standards" Try to get an ammo manufacturer to produce ammo that is not SAAMI approved.
The problem is when ammo manufacturers make ammo larger than the go gauge. Can you see that?
I am an engineer for 25 years, machinist and owner of the company producing the parts.
To be within production spec for firearms we must be within the .004 between the go and no go. If not the gunsmiths including the DEA using our parts will refuse them. Now the gunsmiths assemble all the parts and they are within the go to no-go range. The customer tries to chamber ammo and it will not chamber.
The firearm is within spec and the ammo is within spec but they don't work together.
I think most ammo manufacturers form the brass smaller than the go gauge but I have a bunch of Hornady that is larger than the go gauge or 4 that we have in the shop. I talked to a tech at Hornady today and his response was as expected. "if the ammo is within SAAMI spec there is nothing wrong with it. If it is larger than spec return it and we will check it out."
Those that handload will never have an issue since they adjust the size die. If you try to stuff a cartridge that is .004 larger than the chamber of an AR15 or AR10 it will not fit.
In the post above explaining the gauges I highlighted the key statement.

 

[constructor]

One of two things need to happen. The ammo manufacturers need to make ammo smaller than the go or they need to make the minimum chamber size larger along with the go and no-go gauges. Either way SAAMI needs to coordinate this since they are the company setting the standards.

 

[Ggmac]

I now understand your point , but I politely ask , are you building AR s 15 and 10 s to saami specs and not NATO?

 

[constructor]

I now understand your point , but I politely ask , are you building AR s 15 and 10 s to saami specs and not NATO?

Yes. ETA- We really use the .223 Wylde chamber because the accuracy is better and it will still handle full power M193 and 855- 5.56 ammo. There hasn't been any problems with military ammo because it is always made small compared to civilian ammo. There is no NATO(organization) spec. only a CIP and SAAMI 5.56 Nato (as in cartridge)spec. The headspace is the same for the 5.56 or 223. The only differences are apx .001 in diameter of the case and the length of the throat which has nothing to do with the case size.

This is the difference between the SAAMI "223", SAAMI "5.56 Nato" and "223 Wylde"

 

[Ggmac]

Ive got D Kiffs book of prints , and I noticed a few diff in dimensions . I know some ,probably more than I have personal experience with , have properity chamber specs . It could be to accomodate the wide range of ammo being made . Again please excuse spelling , COFFEE is being made .


Was the hornady problem ammo the imported steel case ?
I can see how manuf at your level can give major headaches . You said saamiwould only talk to you if you paid , is that because of your manufacturing FFL ?
The times I called (actually most were written letters ) they responded .
I hope this makes sense as I have note had my COFFEE yet .
Gary

 

[constructor]

I've tried to converse with them several times over the past 8 years through email and calls, leaving messages with not 1 response. Others I know have never received a response either.
Even if I had gauges made a few thou longer that corrected the problem any ammo manufacturer could make ammo up to the max and they would be .002-.003 larger again.
SAAMI says they set the standard, if SAAMI does the standards need to be correct.