RV's Savage Bolt Lift Mod

[Rocketvapor]

My variation on 38 Spl bolt lift mod for Savage Old Style Firing Pin.
Carbide Micrometer tip (from eBay), New style BAS, 1/4" (for larger contact radius) Si3N4 Ceramic ball, 38 Spl brass case, 10mm thrust bearing race (eBay/China, not from a lift kit) for preload shims, Carbide burrs, file, gold plating kit
Step one:

Using Carbide burrs, form countersink for Ceramic ball.

The Carbide tip ends up being about 0.080" recessed in the BAS.
I shaved about 0.065" (with a file) off the end of the BAS leaving Micrometer tip recessed about 0.015".
Various combinations of shims under the Mic tip can be used for more spring preload (when experimenting with different springs).

The 38 Spl case and 1/4" Ceramic ball add about 0.090" to 0.095" to the internal length, and the 0.080" short Mic tip in the BAS results in about 0.015" additional spring preload. Each shim (bearing race) adds about 0.050" each if needed.

I did one with a 7/32" Ceramic ball, 0.048" added height. Would maybe have to shave another 0.005"-0.010"
off the BAS.

Installed it looks like this;

Lift kits ONLY help with friction between the cocking sleeve and BAS. Other areas, like sharp edges, cocking notch and ramp in the bolt body, and spring coil bind/drag probably contribute more to a hard bolt lift.
Adding or reducing internal length of pin length with shims can help with fine tuning bolt lift.

I've seen friction benefit from various "Lift Kits" but this seems to be the lowest friction, even though it involves some DIY work.
Slight modification to cocking notch and alternate springs, smoothing rough and sharp edges can help.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Reserved for more typing
For those looking to get rid of the new style pin and install the adjustable pin (if compatible with your rifle),
you will need the Savage Cocking Sleeve, the old style (long or short) adjustable pin with spring and parts (about $44),
You already have the new style (with hole) BAS.
the Carbide Micrometer tip (ebay $17),
a Carbide Ball from 4.7mm up to 6.35 (ebay 10 pack about $3),
10mm washers/shims (ebay 10 pack 10x5x4 thrust bearings about $8),
If you already have the old style pin, you will need the New BAS (about $11), but not the other Savage parts.

A variation I have seen is to drill the old style BAS an use a cheaper (smaller) Carbide tip.
The 4mm, 5mm, 6mm Carbide tips are a few dollars cheaper but drilling the old style BAS would be more complicated (depth, diameter, squareness).

The next step in Bolt Lift improvement requires a spare bolt body, non fluted about $45 (Right/Left/Short/Long).
The Full Cock shelf position (held by Bolt Body before being handed off to the Sear), and the NOTCH puts a little extra compression on the pin SPRING to get over the notch. When the Bolt is closed the pin will
De-Cock a small amount (?) as the pin is held by the Sear. This is a touchy/risky mod and a spare body would be good to use. The notch and cocking ramp also need to be polished.

EDIT 6/9/24: The spring I am currently using in a SAVAGE SHORT ACTION is an EGW Flat Wound spring for a Colt Commander, part # 10660, listed as 22# (in a Colt, less in a Savage).
Using a single 10mm bearing race behind the Carbide Mic tip for a total internal increase in spring preload of about 0.120" (shim, shelf drop, and shortened pin/spring) and about 0.060" increase in pinfall over a stock Savage bolt. Pin protrusion is about 0.038"

 

[Rocketvapor]

I took one of my spare bolts bodies and reshaped the notch.
Cut the Full Cock position down about 0.016" and blended the notch a little.
Polished in upper view. Lower right is stock black bolt body that came with the receiver.
Will test in action for force to go to full cock and come off to sear hold.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Got side tracked in another thread on bolt lift and forgot I had started this one.
Have two bolts for the wife to try next week, then a fast turn around for a Saturday match (600).
Didn't get to complete a balance test with the 3 pin locations on her rest.
Guns and Gear was at the range doing some video work and we watched instead of making noise.
Took a few shots then it poured down and we packed up and left

 

[Rocketvapor]

A wrap up on on bolt lift mods for the Savage with adjustable firing pin.
Non-expert opinion. I do not intend to sell anything, just offering advice.
Working on the bolt body notch and ramp might take some bravery for some (a spare bolt body might help) but it is likely to show the biggest improvement. Even though it won't have a direct impact on accuracy, not 'rocking the boat' while running shots should help on the bench or prone. working on the notch/bump alone could be just the low risk thing to help.

Springs and Bolt lift kits. The factory spring seems to be really strong but I guess is necessary for the minimal Pin Fall typical of a factory bolt. Adding internal components of a bolt lift kit adds to the preload of the stock spring unless that added internal length is compensated for by either shaving BAS, built in adjustment, or adding external shims. I know there are several methods used in the various "KITS" available, and all probably help if set up correctly.

Of course I think MY method using the new style BAS, Carbide micrometer tip, and ceramic ball/38SPL is better It can be set up to reduce preload or increase it as needed. I think the factory spring would benefit from reduced preload, and the commander flat wound I use needs more preload (internal shims).

The 0.060" pin protrusion I've found on factory bolts also wastes pin fall. Setting pin protrusion to 0.040" (or a little less) should be PLENTY.
Shortening the effective length of the pin by counterboring the cocking piece and screwing on a turn or two more than stock increases both pin fall AND preload. Watch out for contact between the cocking pin and the bottom of the ramp.

Paying attention to the spring and pin length can pay off.

 

[JFrank]

The last Savage I was running I had a guy install the lift kit with the little ball bearing, I want to say he shortened the bolt body the equal thickness and polished the cocking ramp while leaving the protrusion around .060. The damn thing was really quite smooth ( for a Savage) and shot remarkably well at 600 & 1000 yards.

That’s all I know..
Jim

 

[Rocketvapor]

Setting up 2 Bolts for the next practice session with the Savage SHORT ACTION..
Ramp and notch were worked. Increased Pin fall and spring force a little.
Will do a video of Cocking Force with my Digital Torque Wrench, maybe tomorrow.
Most of the data is in the pics.
Spring force measurement was a little IFFY

Moving my home made depth gauge from bolt 2 to an unmodified stock bolt gives this:

Spring is the EGW 10660. Bolts are SHORT ACTION, note measurements.

Corrected Pin Length of Bolt 1 (Typo).
Stock pin (2 examples) 4.853/3.479".

 

[Rocketvapor]

PIN FALL INCREASE
NOTE: Spring discussion is for the Savage SHORT ACTION.
So many variables to try out at the range using the EGW 10660 flat wound spring.
Preload with the Carbide tip in a new style BAS (-0.080"), with a single bearing race (-0.030"), with two bearings races (+0.020"). Add in the 0.094" for the 1/4" Ball 38SPL gives an increase in spring preload of +0.014", +0.064", or +0.104".
I don't think increasing preload with a stock spring will work. Preload can be REDUCED with EXTERNAL shims.

Counterboring the cocking pin nut 1 or 2 threads allows increased preload and pin fall @ 0.036" per turn (can do 1/4 turn increments). You should be able to shorten pin/increase pin fall with a stock bolt body 3/4 to 1 turn without modifying the bottom of the ramp. You MUST check for contact though.
Even using the old style BAS (no hole) and a Ball/38SPL Lift mod or even the 0.150" thick thrust bearing kit without external shims would probably work with the 22lb Commander spring.
I might put together a bolt with the EGW spring, the 3 piece thrust bearing kit, the old style BAS and NO external shim and shorten the pin by one turn for a future test.

One thing to keep in mind about spring "snaking" once the BAS is screwed down the spring is compressed a lot more than with the pin laying on the table.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Bolt lift, cocking force Bolt #2.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Had a PM question about using the Colt Commander Flat Wound Spring so I put together a image tutorial.
The Colt spring is much weaker than the stock spring and will need internal shims (or a lift kit) to get the decocked spring force to about 13 to 18 pounds. Does NOT need an external shim or trimming of bolt parts.

 

[Rocketvapor]

More images.

 

[Rocketvapor]

NOTE: Spring discussion is for the Savage SHORT ACTION.
The Commander spring is a lot lighter than the stock Savage spring.
When used with the common Bolt Lift Kits with the 3 piece thrust washer/bearing, an external washer is used to compensate for the added internal length of about 0.150".
This external washer is NOT needed with the weaker Commander spring. In fact, some extra spring force might be helpful. You might gain 1/4 to 1/2 turn on the adjusting nut but to get as much as you can requires a little work on the adjusting nut. You will still be limited to how much you can gain before the cocking pin bottoms out on the cocking slot.
Another advantage of this little bit of machining is increased pin fall.
Modifying the cocking slot could get you a little more pin fall but would best be done on a spare $40 bolt sleeve as it is permanent.

I start by measuring pin length as a reference, drilling/reaming about 2 threads out of the end of the adjusting nut, clean up and thread the nut onto the firing pin. I'm guessing you should be able to gain 0.030" of pin fall. You MUST check for cocking pin clearance at the bottom of the slot.
Pin fall and spring force (less any drag or friction) equates to impact force.

 

[Old Navy]

I already had the Desh bolt lift kits in two targets action and they helped but I figured for the $25 cost of the springs I didn't have much to loose. I can't remember the last time a project this simple made such a great difference. With my thumb on the back of the bolt I can lift the handle with my trigger finger. It just flat works. Next step is to polish the cocking ramp to see if makes a difference.
Thanks Glenn for all the work you put into this write up and thanks for helping me with a few questions I had on replacing the spring.

 

[Rat Rifle]

I already had the Desh bolt lift kits in two targets action and they helped but I figured for the $25 cost of the springs I didn't have much to loose. I can't remember the last time a project this simple made such a great difference. With my thumb on the back of the bolt I can lift the handle with my trigger finger. It just flat works. Next step is to polish the cocking ramp to see if makes a difference.
Thanks Glenn for all the work you put into this write up and thanks for helping me with a few questions I had on replacing the spring.

If You don’t mind, what spring weight did You go with ? Colt Commander Spring, right ?

Thanks

 

[Rocketvapor]

The Commander Flat Wound spring I used is rated at 22lb. IN A COMMANDER.
I have to Add 0.090" (38 spc bolt lift) to 0.150" (3 piece thrust bearing) internal with
NO external shim.
PLUS
shorten pin with countersunk adjusting nut to get pin force (uncocked) up to about 15 to 16 lbs.

 

[Rat Rifle]

The Commander Flat Wound spring I used is rated at 22lb. IN A COMMANDER.
I have to Add 0.090" (38 spc bolt lift) to 0.150" (3 piece thrust bearing) internal with
NO external shim.
PLUS
shorten pin with countersunk adjusting nut to get pin force (uncocked) up to about 15 to 16 lbs.

My 38 spl lift kit adds .075”. I remove that amount from the back of the cocking sleeve. Much easier than removing material from the BAS. I have removed 2 coils from the original spring. The lift and performance is acceptable and much improved. But always looking for better. The Colt Commander Springs are offered from 12#’s to 27#’s. Would not one of those be a drop in replacement for My “over sprung” Savage application ?

There are several companies out there that make custom springs. I’m surprised the Savage Brotherhood hasn’t agree on the ideal spring weight, AND DONE A GROUP BUY.

 

[Rocketvapor]

The ISMI FLAT WOUND COMMANDER SPRING is 22lb (@ Commander length).
The spring needs to be for a 1/4" guide rod.
It is sold by https://www.ismi-gunsprings.com/?product=1911-commander-flatwire-recoil-springs
and by https://www.nighthawkcustom.com/spring-22-flat-wire-recoil-everlast-recoil-system-45-acp-commander
and by EGW, their part number 10660 but is still an ISMI spring.
This is not my idea but cam from "he who shall not be named"

Heavier round wire springs would probably work. I haven't tried any.
The 10660 spring is weak and needs help to get impact force up.
A new cocking sleeve (uncut) and a 38SPL bolt lift mod with a larger Ceramic ball or even the 3 peice thrust bearing kit would add more force.

I think (from a somewhat reliable source) "We" need 0.250" minimum pin fall, 0.035" protrusion and 13 to 18 lbs at the primer.
Stock Savages miss on all three.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Here's a thought on pin fall.

Drilling out 1 to 2 threads in the upper adjusting nut doesn't hurt the part, plenty of threads there.
Spare parts, especially the bolt body when modifying the cocking Bump, ramp, or bottom of ramp would be safer than modifying the only bolt body you have.

 

[Rat Rifle]

How much does Savage have at the primer with the original spring and set up ?

 

[Rocketvapor]

I have an unmolested bolt (bought from Midway with $25 off) that decocked measures 23 to 24 pounds on a platform scale.