Runout caused by a bushing?? - Solved

[dstoenner]

The issue wasn't about how many rounds I had on the barrel. Yes I know that was a lot for a 6BR and now that I am 70, I wanted what shooting I did to be on a newer barrel. If I am blessed to wear this new barrel out it will probably be my last BR. I have truly enjoyed the cartridge. I had rebarreled my 308 when I had a shoulder injury. It is everything everybody said about this little guy.

It is a fitting end that the last trip to the range for this barrel I shot the best 30 bull target I have ever shoot regardless of caliber. Then the next one went south half way through it. When I first started noticing the fall off, I did JB bore past the throat heavily. That helped a little but it quickly came back in the second range session. It has taken me some time to get my head wrapped around the fact that barrels are expendable just like bullets, powder and brass.

The issue was for me, why all of a sudden had my 6BR cases gotten so high in runout. I am glad I figured it out and I think once I can find a better bushing, the new gun will have good cases to wring it out.

David

 

[Liven The Dream]

Yes in deed.
Went thru this a few times .
I ran test after test to prove the nasty Bushing Dies made bad Ammo.
I did find a lot to do with adjusting Bushing free play makes a difference and tuning the case 180 and size again helped.
I have a old .308 RCBS SB Die with floater Ball that id Priceless … Makes great cases.

Best of Luck
Don

 

[dstoenner]

BTW I have found that PT & G sells carbide bushing. Listing shows all sizes but my guess is they are made to order because you have to call. I am going to see how the Whidden bushings i bought work out. If they are not the fix the pt&g is going to get a call

 

[chromatica]

+1 for custom honing. I use a Lee press (and shell holder) for sizing with my Forster 260 FLS and shoulder bump die. I discovered that I wasn't getting the shoulder setback that I wanted on my full length sizer die. I had a Hornady shell holder that wouldn't quite fit my Lee press, but I measured the depth of the well that the case sits in. I noticed it was shallower than my Lee shell holder, so I figured not all shell holders are created equal. I decided to remove some material from the top surface of the Lee shell holder to allow the case to rise a little higher into the die. With cut and try I was able to bump my shoulder back .0015 using the full length sizer die from Forster. Right now I am running the FLS die without the expander ball.

I have never had trouble getting enough setback with my Forster shoulder bump die. (Yes, it uses a bushing). I have ordered a .287 bushing to get just a little more neck tension than I am getting with the .288 that came with the bump die kit. I will pay attention to runout as I start shoulder/neck sizing on a more regular basis.

 

[chromatica]

I find the RCBS case gauge very helpful in measuring headspace of a case before and after sizing. Its micrometer action seems much more secure and reliable than a bunch of rickety attachments clinging to the jaws of my calipers.

 

[fyrewall]

From what I read the OP has a .260 (Rem?) with bullets of .264 diameter and bushing dies using bushings of .264 and .266.

To load 6.5X47 Lapua's, I use a Forster F/L die, honed out to .288 (.264 + .012 + .012 = .288) fired case necks measure .292, loaded ammo necks measure .289 -.290 (depending). My Forster F/L .243 (6mm) dies have been honed out to .268. Bullets are seated securely and ammo is fed up from the magazine in a controlled feed bolt action. I generally avoid using an expander button except when and if I turn necks, then after turning no expander button is used. I use 3-IN-ONE lock dry lube inside necks if I use the expander button.

I use a Redding .223 F/L bushing die to make .20 Practical's with a .226 bushing that is put into the die just so it barely jiggles when I shake the die. Taking a look at both ends of the bushing through a 10X magnifier I see no noticeable difference, but to follow convention I use the bushing label side down. This bushing has loaded well over 2,000 rounds of ammo. Should I replace it I will get a titanium nitride coated bushing. No expander button. Neck are barely turned after necking the .223's down to .20 P's after necks are run over a .20 expander in a .223 R die with a .20 expander (3 IN ONE lock lube makes the expander button work smoothly and neck turning go better) Bullets are seated above the "donut".

 

[dstoenner]

From what I read the OP has a .260 (Rem?) with bullets of .264 diameter and bushing dies using bushings of .264 and .266.

To load 6.5X47 Lapua's, I use a Forster F/L die, honed out to .288 (.264 + .012 + .012 = .288) fired case necks measure .292, loaded ammo necks measure .289 -.290 (depending). My Forster F/L .243 (6mm) dies have been honed out to .268. Bullets are seated securely and ammo is fed up from the magazine in a controlled feed bolt action. I generally avoid using an expander button except when and if I turn necks, then after turning no expander button is used. I use 3-IN-ONE lock dry lube inside necks if I use the expander button.

I use a Redding .223 F/L bushing die to make .20 Practical's with a .226 bushing that is put into the die just so it barely jiggles when I shake the die. Taking a look at both ends of the bushing through a 10X magnifier I see no noticeable difference, but to follow convention I use the bushing label side down. This bushing has loaded well over 2,000 rounds of ammo. Should I replace it I will get a titanium nitride coated bushing. No expander button. Neck are barely turned after necking the .223's down to .20 P's after necks are run over a .20 expander in a .223 R die with a .20 expander (3 IN ONE lock lube makes the expander button work smoothly and neck turning go better) Bullets are seated above the "donut".

No i was using 290 on my Lapua brass and 286 on my Hornady brass. I had no trouble with those bushings. The bushings in question here are for my 2 6mm cartridges, 6BR and 6x47 Lapua.

As an update I received my Whidden bushings I ordered. Initial measurements are that they are very symmetrical. I can find no highs or lows. I am headed to the range today for my final phase of load development for my 6x47. Then I will be sizing this brass after it is cleaned. I will see how the runout runs on these cases.

I do find that the Forster honed FL dies do make REALLY straight cases but they are too long to fully size my cases. They need some amount off of the bottom of the die. I wanted to get it so I could do it all in one operation. Frustrating.

David

 

[boltfluter]

David,

Why not have someone with a lathe trim a little off of the bottom of the die for you? Then you would be good to go correct?

Paul

 

[fyrewall]

Hi Dave!

Would grinding down the shell holder fix the problem of excessive length dies not fully sizing cases? I think Redding makes a nest of various height shell holders that would allow more case compression for correct headspace. Not wanting to spend more $$ I attacked one of my numerous Lee #2 shell holders with a diamond wheel grinder in my Dremel increasing the head space (more case compression). Not wanting to increase head space for my other loaded rounds for other rifles, I keep that ground down shell holder in my 6.5X47L die box. This shell holder is readily identifiable due to its scuffed up top surface. Before I shortened the shell holder I was unable to close the bolt on sized once fired 6.5X47L brass. The Lee shell holder is made of really hard tool steel but the diamond wheel ground it down quickly. I have a feeler gauges in .001 increments should I need more fussing with headspace.

The next barrel you install might not need this treatment and if so, toss or hide the ground down shell holder.

 

[fyrewall]

No i was using 290 on my Lapua brass and 286 on my Hornady brass. I had no trouble with those bushings. The bushings in question here are for my 2 6mm cartridges, 6BR and 6x47 Lapua.

As an update I received my Whidden bushings I ordered. Initial measurements are that they are very symmetrical. I can find no highs or lows. I am headed to the range today for my final phase of load development for my 6x47. Then I will be sizing this brass after it is cleaned. I will see how the runout runs on these cases.

I do find that the Forster honed FL dies do make REALLY straight cases but they are too long to fully size my cases. They need some amount off of the bottom of the die. I wanted to get it so I could do it all in one operation. Frustrating.

David

Dave, Please note the above - your post is of interest as I have more than one rifle needing this treatment.

 

[dstoenner]

Hi Dave!

Would grinding down the shell holder fix the problem of excessive length dies not fully sizing cases? I think Redding makes a nest of various height shell holders that would allow more case compression for correct headspace. Not wanting to spend more $$ I attacked one of my numerous Lee #2 shell holders with a diamond wheel grinder in my Dremel increasing the head space (more case compression). Not wanting to increase head space for my other loaded rounds for other rifles, I keep that ground down shell holder in my 6.5X47L die box. This shell holder is readily identifiable due to its scuffed up top surface. Before I shortened the shell holder I was unable to close the bolt on sized once fired 6.5X47L brass. The Lee shell holder is made of really hard tool steel but the diamond wheel ground it down quickly. I have a feeler gauges in .001 increments should I need more fussing with headspace.

The next barrel you install might not need this treatment and if so, toss or hide the ground down shell holder.

I agree that taking metal off the top of a shell holder would work. But it could be trail and error. My goal would be to be able to use the Redding competition shell holders for control of exactly how much I am moving the shoulder back. For consistency I always want my shell holder to kiss the bottom of the sizing die. That takes the brass from adding a factor of how much the shoulder is set back

Also the Redding competition shell holders work on the premise that a normal shell holder is 0 line and then they are - in distance from that datum by -.002 to -.010 in steps of .002. I use them on all my cases except my 223 cases. I might start with my Lapua cases that I only shoot in my bolt 223.

David

 

[dstoenner]

Update for all. As I said I got my Whidden bushings yesterday and measuring them they are really right on. Today I did some more load development and have a lot of brass to size. As a quick sample I did 20 cases and measured the run out. Out of the 20 I had 2 at .002 runout, 2 at .0015 and the rest were .001 or less a few just wiggled the needle. After I get through with all of the case prep I will measure the entire batch of 92 cases to see what really is the distribution. With my 260 in Lapua cases where I would do 90+ at a time for a load and then sort for run out I would get about 40 that would be .001 or less, about 25 - 30 at .002. The rest would be .003 to .005. So if the sample size of 20 holds I would get about 70 at .001. That is a fantastic improvement. I was happy getting the 40.

I should have the data maybe Monday,Tuesday at the latest. Stay tuned

David

 

[dstoenner]

David,

Why not have someone with a lathe trim a little off of the bottom of the die for you? Then you would be good to go correct?

Paul

Agree wholeheartedly. My shooting buddy has a small lathe but I am not for sure it will handle a die. After that I am sort of a loss. For sure you have to have carbide tools with a cooling stream which I am pretty sure Rich doesn’t have.

David

 

[fyrewall]

Agree wholeheartedly. My shooting buddy has a small lathe but I am not for sure it will handle a die. After that I am sort of a loss. For sure you have to have carbide tools with a cooling stream which I am pretty sure Rich doesn’t have.

David

So, would trimming off the bottom of a hard tool steel die using a lathe (those dies are real hard! and carbide is brittle) be less of a trial and error procedure than just working on a shell holder ? Also, I doubt that extreme fussy in regard to headspace is of much value - many bench rest wizards prefer head space slightly on the generous side. I believe Forster uses a diamond abrasive process on their die necks to "hone" them bigger.

 

[watercam]

So, guys, you all have read the instructions and ARE backing the bushing retaining cap off 1/16th turn so that the bushing can float, right? You ARE NOT using expander balls with bushing dies, right? You ARE all seating your bullets half way, then lowering the ram and rotating the case 1/2 turn and then seating the bullet the rest of the way, RIGHT? I have run box stock Redding Type-S dies for half a dozen calibers with run-out of .000" - .0015" max using the above techniques. Claude Audette showed us the way with rotating cases half a turn to lower run-out by half at least.

 

[AJC]

So, would trimming off the bottom of a hard tool steel die using a lathe (those dies are real hard! and carbide is brittle) be less of a trial and error procedure than just working on a shell holder ? Also, I doubt that extreme fussy in regard to headspace is of much value - many bench rest wizards prefer head space slightly on the generous side. I believe Forster uses a diamond abrasive process on their die necks to "hone" them bigger.

I am guessing they are using something like tool steel to make the dies and then either in house or shipping them out to heat treat. I can't imagine how hard they are because i dont know there process or what the material they started with. Using carbide insert tooling should cut almost anything, and cooling might not even be an issue due to the shallow amount of the cut. If .010 is max that is really a shallow cut in most cases and you would not take that all at once, take some then skim for cleanup. You would not have a hard time having this done at a machine shop because the other option is to use the grinder and that can take amounts that is not even conceivable
on the machines.

 

[boltfluter]

I have converted several Redding body dies to accept Wilson bushings for myself. Tough, but not impossible to do. I think trimming .010 -.015 off the bottom off of a die would be much easier to do. Most any lathe with carbide tooling should be able to handle this job. No coolant needed.

Paul

 

[dstoenner]

So, guys, you all have read the instructions and ARE backing the bushing retaining cap off 1/16th turn so that the bushing can float, right? You ARE NOT using expander balls with bushing dies, right? You ARE all seating your bullets half way, then lowering the ram and rotating the case 1/2 turn and then seating the bullet the rest of the way, RIGHT? I have run box stock Redding Type-S dies for half a dozen calibers with run-out of .000" - .0015" max using the above techniques. Claude Audette showed us the way with rotating cases half a turn to lower run-out by half at least.

Yes I am floating the bushing. I am not using an expander. When I seat the bullets I go half way then rotate about 90 and fully seat bullet then go another 90 and bounce the die handle twice. It raised my .001 runout to greater than 40%.

David

 

[watercam]

So, guys, you all have read the instructions and ARE backing the bushing retaining cap off 1/16th turn so that the bushing can float, right? You ARE NOT using expander balls with bushing dies, right? You ARE all seating your bullets half way, then lowering the ram and rotating the case 1/2 turn and then seating the bullet the rest of the way, RIGHT? I have run box stock Redding Type-S dies for half a dozen calibers with run-out of .000" - .0015" max using the above techniques. Claude Audette showed us the way with rotating cases half a turn to lower run-out by half at least.

Oiy. I need to stop posting a night. Sorry for the heavy handed tone folks. Hope your problem is resolved easily.

 

[dstoenner]

I have been working this afternoon to finish off the case prep so I could measure the whole lot. I am finished and in one word

SUCCESS

I had a lot of 92 fires cases. I had projected that based on my sample size of 20 I would have about 70 that were .001 or less runout on the dial. Well here is the breakdown.

68 that were .001 or less, 10 of those just wiggled the needle so they were maybe .00025?
12 that were .0015
12 that were .002

Nothing greater than 2. Now I know from another experiment I ran on my 260 Remington where I sorted a group of Lapua cases and then loaded them with 140 Berger Hybrids and then measured each group, 95% or better that were 1's stay 1's. A few will go to 2 and in my case 1 went to 3. Then the 2's had a couple go to 1, the majority stayed 2 and they were a couple that went 3. The few 3's I had, 1 went to 1 1 went to 2 and the rest stayed 3. The 1 lone 4 and 1 lone 5 both stayed 4 and 5 respectively.

So for me at least, the $15 Whidden bushings have been a success. Now to test them on my 6BR cases but that will be a few months as I am waiting on a new barrel.

I am able to stay with my Whidden sizer and be able to use the Redding Competition shell holders to adjust as needed all in one operation.

Thanks for all of the suggestions along the way.

David