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Round Robin or Group By Group

Timon

Scott Wills
Silver $$ Contributor
I’m getting ready to run a powder test and I am again faced with the question; do I shoot round robin, or group by group?

I was wondering if there has ever been any type of decisive testing done on this question? I have seen the biggest names in shooting recommending both way, so there does not seem to be anything decisive from the pro shooters, that I have seen, or read.

So, the question again; has there been any decisive testing done on this subject, or are results from shooter to shooter, with nothing really definitive? I’ve done testing both ways and have noticed “group by group” to yield slighter better groups overall, but I would not call it definitive.
 
The funny thing about open forums... if folks often don't realize the context of their shooting is in their own head unless they tell us what kind of shooting they are discussing, then we cannot give you a good answer.

To make this simple, if you are doing formal scientific testing, versus you are doing Bench Rest, versus you are doing pre loaded ammo, etc. Unless you get specific about the goals of your shooting and the type of load development test, the answer is "it depends".....

Round Robin has it's place, and so does group shooting, and string shooting. Tell us what you plan to run and maybe you will get better advice.
 
The funny thing about open forums... if folks often don't realize the context of their shooting is in their own head unless they tell us what kind of shooting they are discussing, then we cannot give you a good answer.

To make this simple, if you are doing formal scientific testing, versus you are doing Bench Rest, versus you are doing pre loaded ammo, etc. Unless you get specific about the goals of your shooting and the type of load development test, the answer is "it depends".....

Round Robin has it's place, and so does group shooting, and string shooting. Tell us what you plan to run and maybe you will get better advice.
Straight on short range (100-300 yards) Benchrest Shooting. I’ve been loading for about 16 years and in my personal shooting have never found an answer, one vs the other. I was just curious if any real studies had been completed on the topic. Or, if someone had convincing evidence of one vs the other.

Thanks for the reply!
 
I’m getting ready to run a powder test and I am again faced with the question; do I shoot round robin, or group by group?

I was wondering if there has ever been any type of decisive testing done on this question? I have seen the biggest names in shooting recommending both way, so there does not seem to be anything decisive from the pro shooters, that I have seen, or read.

So, the question again; has there been any decisive testing done on this subject, or are results from shooter to shooter, with nothing really definitive? I’ve done testing both ways and have noticed “group by group” to yield slighter better groups overall, but I would not call it definitive.
It's not reasonable to compare what a world class BR shooter does to how I improve my short range deer hunting rifle. I am lucky I have 2 varmint hunting rifles that shoot under .400". I can't see differences in seating depth and very little in powder charges. Years ago I settled on several loads that are good enough to keep me happy. I see a definite difference in bullets. I aways varied the powder charge and sometimes seating depth for each bullet type. Small and round is all I look for. Temperature stability isn't a factor for hunting.
 
Cant say i’ve seen any definitive results. I’ve tried both methods at mid and long range, I shoot at one point of aim during these tests at a modest pace rather than making sight adjustments and waiting or cooling between shots. Both seem to have strong points as well as short comings.
 
The only thing Ive ever read that was done under testing conditions is that when you change types or brand of powders, it is best to clean between them.

Let's say your shooting 5 rounds of H4895 and then going to H335, it is best to clean before you switch powders. Of course this was for benchrest shooting.

I believe I read about this in an old Precision Shooting article.
 
Straight on short range (100-300 yards) Benchrest Shooting. I’ve been loading for about 16 years and in my personal shooting have never found an answer, one vs the other. I was just curious if any real studies had been completed on the topic. Or, if someone had convincing evidence of one vs the other.

Thanks for the reply!
There is a real problem with non-lab folks wanting to deride lab folks on the forum, so let's just say that real lab methods that stand up to peer reviews or court rooms, versus the internet are not the same..... that said...

Do we really need that kind of testing or method here (here meaning in a BR context)? My opinion is no.

In BR, we are discussing a specific game where groups of 5 at a time are required, and ammo can be tuned to the conditions. There are sighters, which is a very important distinction.

The sheer number of humans who randomly explore the fringes and margins of loading, combined with the ones near the middle of the trail, have beaten the topic to death. That is, the topic of getting state of the art performance results. The internal ballistics and external ballistics topics leave very little room for "discovery" unless we are talking real R&D for making better material or components.

With a barrel from a well-respected maker, chambered by a competent smith, while using high quality components in the load recipe, we already have a pretty good idea of the average results before the first shot is taken.

Who will set a +3 Sigma or set a record is not the same debate, but in the hands of the skilled competitors we can even say that those records have a trend limit that moves with the manufacturing technology and bullet makers. Records fall when conditions are right, and there have been enough tries.

But to be more clear, I am not aware of any formal studies of BR shooting unless you count the use of machines. Those were bullet tests more than they were load development testing, and the results were never public domain or shareable.

When "inside" and discussing BR shooting, we had to limit the discussion to the folks who were also "insiders" and willing to explain their testing and results since The GOV had no real interest in BR shooting.

When we looked at match results, it was easy to see that even at the bigger well attended matches, there was no guarantee of records being set or conditions being ripe for records to be set.

Shooting groups during a match was not the same as the question of how did those top performers find their loads? None that I am aware of used round robin testing for BR. They will speak up if they choose.

That makes sense since the typical guns, calibers, cartridges, bullets, recipes, barrels, etc., are all well established and wouldn't really require what I would call raw and impartial research methods. YMMV
 
At a known, longer distance, I use sharpies and positive compensation with 3 shot groups. Only after 5 initial shots to have some heat and fouling in the barrel. The method I stated earlier in the thread is what I do for SR-BR. I tried round-robin and didn't like all the rest movement, as stated by another poster above.

Regards
Rick
 
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This is the way i do it. I use the 90° lower left "L" for a hold, setting my scope so poi is in the square. 2 shots. 10 loaded at that charge.
I'm looking for the best group. I find it then play around that with tuner then seating depth.
The Garmin added the ability to see the speed without giving up poa shooting through a conagraph.
100yrds
 
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I wish I was a lot younger.
There is a real problem with non-lab folks wanting to deride lab folks on the forum, so let's just say that real lab methods that stand up to peer reviews or court rooms, versus the internet are not the same..... that said...

Do we really need that kind of testing or method here (here meaning in a BR context)? My opinion is no.

In BR, we are discussing a specific game where groups of 5 at a time are required, and ammo can be tuned to the conditions. There are sighters, which is a very important distinction.

The sheer number of humans who randomly explore the fringes and margins of loading, combined with the ones near the middle of the trail, have beaten the topic to death. That is, the topic of getting state of the art performance results. The internal ballistics and external ballistics topics leave very little room for "discovery" unless we are talking real R&D for making better material or components.

With a barrel from a well-respected maker, chambered by a competent smith, while using high quality components in the load recipe, we already have a pretty good idea of the average results before the first shot is taken.

Who will set a +3 Sigma or set a record is not the same debate, but in the hands of the skilled competitors we can even say that those records have a trend limit that moves with the manufacturing technology and bullet makers. Records fall when conditions are right, and there have been enough tries.

But to be more clear, I am not aware of any formal studies of BR shooting unless you count the use of machines. Those were bullet tests more than they were load development testing, and the results were never public domain or shareable.

When "inside" and discussing BR shooting, we had to limit the discussion to the folks who were also "insiders" and willing to explain their testing and results since The GOV had no real interest in BR shooting.

When we looked at match results, it was easy to see that even at the bigger well attended matches, there was no guarantee of records being set or conditions being ripe for records to be set.

Shooting groups during a match was not the same as the question of how did those top performers find their loads? None that I am aware of used round robin testing for BR. They will speak up if they choose.

That makes sense since the typical guns, calibers, cartridges, bullets, recipes, barrels, etc., are all well established and wouldn't really require what I would call raw and impartial research methods. YMMV
One of the problems we Short Range Benchrest Shooters have is we sacrifice all other aspects of ballistic performance for the combinations ability to shoot the smallest aggregate possible under match conditions at 100 and 200 yards, and on occasion 300.
That is why I preface many of my post with the thoughts that I am talking about Short Range Benchrest, in my case, Score in particular.
This often has very little to do with the multitude of other Shooting Disciplines where quite a few other things count as much if not more.
I come from the era when Short Range Benchrest was at it’s prime, when shooters would marvel at the way those guys could literally stack one bullet on top of another, on the clock, outside, in the wind, with no alibis. .
All you have to do is look at who is now shooting what to realize that those days have past. I can remember when you had to pre register for a Region Match to even get in, now, often you just wonder if you even need enough targets for more than one relay on a 25 bench range.
All while the local PRS or F Class match has the parking lot full and every manufacturer catering to their needs.
Good example. Kelbly.

So when I go to the range with my 30BR, set up my flags, set up my loading equipment, and sit there all day long trying to make every shot take the exact same path to the target as the one before, it all gets a little impractical for about 90% of the shooters who frequent Web Sites such as this.

Here is a good example. A while back, I was at the range testing my 68 grn bullets with my Rail Gun. A group of Four H Club shooters were at the rim fire range, and their Sponsor brought them over to take a look at what I was doing. They all were amazed at my ability to shoot groups that looked like a single 30 caliber bullet hole. I even let one sit down and with my instruction, shoot a five shot group.

He might never shoot a group that small again .

But then, they all got to looking at all of the “stuff” that I had lugged to the range just to do that one thing, the Rifle, the flags, the custom bullets, all of the loading equipment, the bench setup, and you could see the air just go out of the balloon.
Sometimes we can be our own worst enemy.
 
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And after all of that, I failed to answer his question:rolleyes:

I trust groups. And since I load at the range, I can see first hand how any change affects the rifles precision.

But being a score shooter, I also, after shooting groups, set up some score targets and (try) to hit some X’s.

Sounds easy. Only many can find that X to be more illusive than one would think.
 

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