Right direction loading 223 ?

[DLT]

I thought I had a load figured up with varget until I had to open a new container. Went up and down from the original charge and came up empty handed. I made a Hail Mary switch to H4895 with the 69smk today and came up with this until I ran short on time. Had no pressure signs when I had to stop. Started at 23.0 went up in .2gr increments till 24.0, I shot 23.2 twice just to see if it would repeat. Does it look like it’s supposed to ? I can go on up. No chrono data. Shots taken at 100yds

 

[JT27]

I’ve always found my node 24.7-25 of Varget with the 69smk. No experience with H4895.
Vhitavouri n140 works equally well with identical charges.

 

[grovey]

25.3 grs of varget with the 69gr mk in my old gun

 

[Conaso]

Using Varget 25gr for 69gr SMK, H4895 69gr 23.6gr, 77gr SMK/TMK 22.5gr. All LC brass.

 

[RegionRat]

These days, H4895 is harder to find than Varget.

I would suggest that these results are near impossible to judge and likely won't repeat.

How far do you plan to shoot this rig/load?
Are these all magazine length, or do you also plan to run seating depth tests?

If I were to try and guess your next move, I would go back to Varget (or whatever you have the most of), and go to at least 300 yards and test to see if there are more obvious shifts in the group size or POI.

 

[memilanuk]

I would suggest that these results are near impossible to judge and likely won't repeat.

^ this

 

[DLT]

These days, H4895 is harder to find than Varget.

I would suggest that these results are near impossible to judge and likely won't repeat.

How far do you plan to shoot this rig/load?
Are these all magazine length, or do you also plan to run seating depth tests?

If I were to try and guess your next move, I would go back to Varget (or whatever you have the most of), and go to at least 300 yards and test to see if there are more obvious shifts in the group size or POI.

Bolt gun, wylde chamber. I’m .020 off the lands. Yes to seating depth test if I can get it to repeat like 23.2 did on up in the charge. I don’t see why it wouldn’t my groups appear to me they are opening and closing up like they should be. What do you see I don’t ?
I mostly shoot critters, paper and steel out to 620yds. Y’all are a H4985 hating crowd.

 

[Dgd6mm]

H4895 is my go to FTR powder for my midrange. 223 and long range .308. No hate here at all.
To me your testing doesn't show anything going into or coming out of a node.
To me , simply it's all over the place.
Maybe something is wrong with your setup? Or you had a bad day of shooting?
How about wind flags?
I'm not trying to be critical here, but just asking.

 

[DLT]

H4895 is my go to FTR powder for my midrange. 223 and long range .308. No hate here at all.
To me your testing doesn't show anything going into or coming out of a node.
To me , simply it's all over the place.
Maybe something is wrong with your setup? Or you had a bad day of shooting?
How about wind flags?
I'm not trying to be critical here, but just asking.

No wind flags at 100. Was a light breeze of and on. Felt great and settled on all shots. So powder change time because no 2 consecutive groups/charges are any good ?

 

[RegionRat]

Bolt gun, wylde chamber. I’m .020 off the lands. Yes to seating depth test if I can get it to repeat like 23.2 did on up in the charge. I don’t see why it wouldn’t my groups appear to me they are opening and closing up like they should be. What do you see I don’t ?
I mostly shoot critters, paper and steel out to 620yds. Y’all are a H4985 hating crowd.

Not a H4895 hater at all. In fact, it is one of the easiest powders to work with and very well behaved when it tolerates downloading as well as full pressure. Add in relatively flat temperature response and it is well regarded.
Don't mistake lamenting the lack of availability with hate for the powder.

When I look at your target, the open/close you mention is not going to repeat based on how close together those patterns are. When we shoot 3 shot groups, this is the risk.

Instead, what we do is ignore the group size for the moment, and focus on the group centroid POI shift.

In your case, there is no strong pattern but it is also not bad news since this means your test shows no bad behavior either. So, I would look at the upside too in that there is a very steady performance with almost any charge you select.

Pick your favorites best and worst, then go test at the longest distance you have available on a calm day. Run several groups to get the sample size up. Then pick the best one in terms of the vertical performance or "waterline" and start your seating depth test. Have some fun and good luck!

ETA: If that result doesn't make you happy, and you are using either H4895 or Varget, then yes to the recipe change. Once you do the best you can with a recipe and it doesn't get where you know it should, you try a different bullet or powder change.

This is why rookies are encouraged to get a mentor and join a club. It puts them into hardware and recipes known to work. Every barrel has some risks, but once we are talking patterns of barrel profile, chambering, stocking, etc., we have a pretty good idea of what the performance should be. The rest is the skill level of the operator. YMMV.

 

[nakneker]

I thought I had a load figured up with varget until I had to open a new container. Went up and down from the original charge and came up empty handed. I made a Hail Mary switch to H4895 with the 69smk today and came up with this until I ran short on time. Had no pressure signs when I had to stop. Started at 23.0 went up in .2gr increments till 24.0, I shot 23.2 twice just to see if it would repeat. Does it look like it’s supposed to ? I can go on up. No chrono data. Shots taken at 100yds

View attachment 1440119

I’d explore that 24 grain charge a bit more.

 

[alf]

I'd put 'em in the lands first......

 

[DLT]

Not a H4895 hater at all. In fact, it is one of the easiest powders to work with and very well behaved when it tolerates downloading as well as full pressure. Add in relatively flat temperature response and it is well regarded.
Don't mistake lamenting the lack of availability with hate for the powder.

When I look at your target, the open/close you mention is not going to repeat based on how close together those patterns are. When we shoot 3 shot groups, this is the risk.

Instead, what we do is ignore the group size for the moment, and focus on the group centroid POI shift.

In your case, there is no strong pattern but it is also not bad news since this means your test shows no bad behavior either. So, I would look at the upside too in that there is a very steady performance with almost any charge you select.

Pick your favorites best and worst, then go test at the longest distance you have available on a calm day. Run several groups to get the sample size up. Then pick the best one in terms of the vertical performance or "waterline" and start your seating depth test. Have some fun and good luck!

ETA: If that result doesn't make you happy, and you are using either H4895 or Varget, then yes to the recipe change. Once you do the best you can with a recipe and it doesn't get where you know it should, you try a different bullet or powder change.

This is why rookies are encouraged to get a mentor and join a club. It puts them into hardware and recipes known to work. Every barrel has some risks, but once we are talking patterns of barrel profile, chambering, stocking, etc., we have a pretty good idea of what the performance should be. The rest is the skill level of the operator. YMMV.

That’s what I was thinking about no shift in impact except the 24.0gr charge it was a little higher. I didn’t see any 2 tight consecutive groups had me a little worried but I do still have room to go up.

 

[RegionRat]

Yes, with 69 SMK you have some room to go up with Varget and H4895. I'll paste a snapshot of the Sierra data below, which you probably know is on the 223 page on the main AS site.
If you have the ability to put paper up farther down range, I would just cut to the chase and search near the typical Pet Load level for the 69 SMK. With a 20" Service Rifle pattern, that is 25 grains of Varget, N140, or H4895, plus or minus to find your rig's preference. These are not low pressure and known to shorten brass life in AR but may do better in a bolt rig.

I would check to make sure you stay away from any group center shifts and then try a little seating depth testing. Nothing wrong with the 69 SMK, it will teach you a lot. But, if you shoot much beyond 300 very often in wind, try the SMK 77, TMK 77, or SMK 80 when you have the time.

Nothing wrong with burning lighter bullets on some days at shorter range, then switching to 80 SMK for the 300+ days.
http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223rembolt.pdf

 

[DLT]

Yes, with 69 SMK you have some room to go up with Varget and H4895. I'll paste a snapshot of the Sierra data below, which you probably know is on the 223 page on the main AS site.
If you have the ability to put paper up farther down range, I would just cut to the chase and search near the typical Pet Load level for the 69 SMK. With a 20" Service Rifle pattern, that is 25 grains of Varget, N140, or H4895, plus or minus to find your rig's preference. These are not low pressure and known to shorten brass life in AR but may do better in a bolt rig.

I would check to make sure you stay away from any group center shifts and then try a little seating depth testing. Nothing wrong with the 69 SMK, it will teach you a lot. But, if you shoot much beyond 300 very often in wind, try the SMK 77, TMK 77, or SMK 80 when you have the time.

Nothing wrong with burning lighter bullets on some days at shorter range, then switching to 80 SMK for the 300+ days.
http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223rembolt.pdf

View attachment 1440206

I do have data. My time just got cut short due to off and on rain delaying things. I have a good bit of varget and H4895 but only 1lb of n140 and it’s hard to find and expensive

 

[Jet]

I would load 23.1gr and do a seating depth test if you want to stay in a low node. I believe it can repeat based on what you've posted. Shoot 23.8 - 25 to explore a higher node. Your 24gr nice group doesn't give enough date on the charge weights above it.

 

[RegionRat]

I do have data. My time just got cut short due to off and on rain delaying things. I have a good bit of varget and H4895 but only 1lb of n140 and it’s hard to find and expensive

The H4895 supply has been poor lately. Roughly speaking, it hasn't been around for over 40 weeks. Folks ate that up very quickly because it was scarce before that. So, if you have enough to hold you for a while you are fine.

Varget used to be a cycle of waiting for the shipments from Australia and then starving in between, but they have been bleeding it out in small doses lately so something about their business model at Hodgdon and ADI has changed since the election/Covid shortage. Right now, Varget is off the shelf at several places.

Once you find the powder(s) you like, you tend to have to buy on speculation and keep enough on hand to stay in the game for the life of a barrel or two. Otherwise, you spend too much of your time playing at the loading bench instead of practicing in the wind.

 

[DLT]

I would load 23.1gr and do a seating depth test if you want to stay in a low node. I believe it can repeat based on what you've posted. Shoot 23.8 - 25 to explore a higher node. Your 24gr nice group doesn't give enough date on the charge weights above it.

Right, I ran out of time. I will revisit those you mentioned and keep going on up before I quit with H4895. Thank you for the advice. I’m assuming a node in 223 is not very wide because of the small case would that be correct ?

 

[Jet]

correct

 

[DLT]

I continued up to 24.6gr of h4895. I reshot 24.0 and had a flyer that struck high into the target above it but I felt good on the shot. 24.2 wasn’t so hateful but 24.4 and 24.6 was. I need to anneal my brass and size it before I go on up. Unless 23.2 repeats I’d say I’m all but done with h4895. Temp was the same as the day before 77 degrees but with zero wind and zero mirage