He was a BR competitor for some time. My rifle was not a BR kind of rifle, so it was never going to deliver BR results. But, he did not shoot it any better than I. It is very possible with a more accurate rifle, my shooting skills may have not have matched his. I would actually expect he could outshoot me with a top drawer rifle.
Rifle or Ammo MOST Important?
- Thread starter Phil3
- Start date
Coyotefurharvester
Silver $$ Contributor
Rifle barrel
dryhumor
When an old man dies, a library is lost forever...
Sako factory ammo is stated to shoot X MOA through Sako or Tikka rifles. I was curious enough about it to pick up a box. The cold bore 5 shot group met the stated accuracy through my T3X. It even put the group just above point of aim. Will it do that every time, with different conditions, they state it will.
As long as the shooter is consistent. That, they didn’t state….
As long as the shooter is consistent. That, they didn’t state….
I built a match rifle for shooting FTR and tuned a load that shot well enough to earn high master at midrange. I then sold that rifle to a friend who is shooting factory match grade ammo and can only achieve 1.5 MOA groups at 600 yds. I blame the ammo for 80% of that vs the shooter. I know what that gun is capable of. Any factory ammo can not be tuned to a particular rifle like hand loaded ammo. That being said, the software is as important as the hardware.
The answer to your question, at least in my opinion, is a composite of three factors: the rifle, the ammo, and the skill of the shooter.
The Rifle:
You need a reliable rifle that is capable of delivery a shot to the level of acceptable accuracy (point of impact in the required zone) for your discipline. For me, I will take a rifle with adequate precision that holds consistent point of impact over one that shoots smaller groups but at different points of impact.
The Ammo:
I have seen some remarkable groups shot at the range with factory ammo and factory rifles. The problem with factory ammo is obtaining a consistent supply of the specific type that works well in your rifle and the lack of control over inherent manufacturing variability. This is why, in my opinion, for precision shooting, reloads have a huge advantage. I no longer reload to save money, but to produce a consistent supply of ammo that is tuned to my rifles which I believe is necessary to high performance precision shooting.
The Shooter:
Given the above, the most significant variable, at least in my case, is me, the shooter. The ability to consistently apply the fundamentals of required marksmanship, the mental focus, the physical capability to repeat the fundamentals is my limiting factor. I believe way too much is made over equipment and not enough focus on marksmanship including the ability to read wind and mirage.
In fact, I would like to see more posts regarding shooting skills than the preponderance of details regarding reloading and equipment. I imagine the reason for the focus on equipment is this that is much easier to address that than marksmanship skills since the latter requires a lot of training and practice to perfect plus it can be a perishable skill requiring continued maintenance. In other words, you can't buy marksmanship - you have to develop it.
The Rifle:
You need a reliable rifle that is capable of delivery a shot to the level of acceptable accuracy (point of impact in the required zone) for your discipline. For me, I will take a rifle with adequate precision that holds consistent point of impact over one that shoots smaller groups but at different points of impact.
The Ammo:
I have seen some remarkable groups shot at the range with factory ammo and factory rifles. The problem with factory ammo is obtaining a consistent supply of the specific type that works well in your rifle and the lack of control over inherent manufacturing variability. This is why, in my opinion, for precision shooting, reloads have a huge advantage. I no longer reload to save money, but to produce a consistent supply of ammo that is tuned to my rifles which I believe is necessary to high performance precision shooting.
The Shooter:
Given the above, the most significant variable, at least in my case, is me, the shooter. The ability to consistently apply the fundamentals of required marksmanship, the mental focus, the physical capability to repeat the fundamentals is my limiting factor. I believe way too much is made over equipment and not enough focus on marksmanship including the ability to read wind and mirage.
In fact, I would like to see more posts regarding shooting skills than the preponderance of details regarding reloading and equipment. I imagine the reason for the focus on equipment is this that is much easier to address that than marksmanship skills since the latter requires a lot of training and practice to perfect plus it can be a perishable skill requiring continued maintenance. In other words, you can't buy marksmanship - you have to develop it.
I went through this yesterday
No, neck sizing is not better, just faster and easier.
No, you don’t just set dies till they touch the shell holder, you need to know headspace.
No, trimming brass is actually really important.
When you have 8 feet of vertical at 1286 yards that 100 yard group doesn’t mean diddly squat.
It’s like arguing with my self a decade ago!
Lol
dcali
Bullet Maker
Both the rifle and the ammo have a ceiling. A great rifle cannot shoot poor ammo, and the best bullets/components/load will not shoot out of a poor rifle. You need both. The worse of the two will be your limit.
One of the biggest attitudes that hold shooters back is the idea that every problem is a poor shooter, or that you can practice your way out of low scores with a mediocre rifle. Nobody is winning big matches with crappy stuff.
(I'm talking about high precision disciplines. In XC, you absolutely can win with a mediocre rilfe).
One of the biggest attitudes that hold shooters back is the idea that every problem is a poor shooter, or that you can practice your way out of low scores with a mediocre rifle. Nobody is winning big matches with crappy stuff.
(I'm talking about high precision disciplines. In XC, you absolutely can win with a mediocre rilfe).
Interesting post, but what was left out was luck. Yes, a great set of builds, both the rifle and the load are required, practice is a must also for you improve your luck.
My neighbor is (like me) old now but used to be Marine Recon, I'm ex Navy, one day up on his roof realizing that it needed more than just a repair, he looked East, he said he ranged it one day, 780 yards up hill in a rural development.
Being the negative Nancy that I am I said look at the flags, (at least 10 house had them). Shit! An average day about 5 MPH steady, 15MPH gusts and the wind changed directions 4 times from our end to the other end of the development and in one area swirled.
To answer the OP, I'd say yes, rifle, load, practice and luck. When there's alot riding on the few seconds that you have to aquire, fire and hit, I'm for working your ass off with your rifle and load, then praying for luck.
My neighbor is (like me) old now but used to be Marine Recon, I'm ex Navy, one day up on his roof realizing that it needed more than just a repair, he looked East, he said he ranged it one day, 780 yards up hill in a rural development.
Being the negative Nancy that I am I said look at the flags, (at least 10 house had them). Shit! An average day about 5 MPH steady, 15MPH gusts and the wind changed directions 4 times from our end to the other end of the development and in one area swirled.
To answer the OP, I'd say yes, rifle, load, practice and luck. When there's alot riding on the few seconds that you have to aquire, fire and hit, I'm for working your ass off with your rifle and load, then praying for luck.
Shoot a 20 shot string through a chrono with factory "match" ammo and record the ES/SD. It's pretty easy to shoot a 1/2 moa group at 100 yards. Not so easy at 600 or 1000 yards. You almost have to handload to be consistent at long range. I don't know anyone who shoots factory ammo at long range.
I did a test a while ago, with my CZ457, and my Anschutz 1813. With both CCI Std Vel, and Lapua CenterX. I don't know where the exact results went, but they were like this:
CZ457 & CCI Std Vel = .8moa
Anschutz & CCI Std Vel = .7moa
CZ457 & Lapua CenterX = .6moa
Anschutz & Lapua CenterX = .5moa
This says to me that ammo is more important than the rifle. But that's assuming the rifle isn't garbage.
CZ457 & CCI Std Vel = .8moa
Anschutz & CCI Std Vel = .7moa
CZ457 & Lapua CenterX = .6moa
Anschutz & Lapua CenterX = .5moa
This says to me that ammo is more important than the rifle. But that's assuming the rifle isn't garbage.
Yes it all matters but why start with primers when your rifle shoots a 3 inch group? There is an order to the importance, to me if a rifle shoots bad the first thing to look at is the scope, mounts and rings, maybe the bedding, and action screw s next. After that it gets a little muddy. But i assure you a real gunsmith has a lis in his mind or on paper that starts with the most frequent problems and goes to the hard to find at the bottom of the list. When I work on a dragging door I don't get to planing it first I look to see if the hinge screws are loose first.
Snooz in that case maybe yes but actually both are pretty good rifles and seem to be working as designed. i have a Remington 700 in 7 RUM when the smith built it he convinced me to order a PGT bolt that was available in different diameters so I could get the bolt that was .001 smaller than the Remington raceway. The rifle shot terrible. it would hang fire. The smith that installed the bolt never adjusted the firing pin length and primer were not hit dep enough to go off right. None of the single digit SD loads would make it shoot right. It takes both to make a gun shoot. thats why my first answer was YES to your question. A whole lot of things need to be just right and only one wrong one will ruin the results.
Bill Norris
Back in the Day
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
I'm going to agree this is close to the right answer....
With your indulgence, I think the outcome is based on 1/3 ammo, 1/3 rifle, and 1/3 shooter.
Every fall, there are small towns in The Rockies that have sight-ins for hunters who show up from far and near.
This means the sample size of folks is pretty big and there are a variety of guns, ammo, and shooters. Probably about a quarter or third of them show up with hand loads, the majority are shooting factory ammo.
Some small percentage show up dialed in and are proficient, the vast majority is split between mediocre and a disaster.
I can probably count these proficient folks on one hand for a given day. But that means there are dozens who suck bad, and the majority that are clearly not practicing or loading enough. Half those proficient shooters are shooting factory ammo, so handloading isn't the only factor.
I give folks credit for their enthusiasm and for showing up, but probably less than one in five are up to the task of hitting a kill zone within the range of western elk/deer hunting. It explains the dead/wounded animals found in the landscape and the poorly shot ones you see at the processing plants.
On several occasions, we work on the rifles and hand them back and they do just okay in the hands of their owners with their ammo. Could be the travel shifted their boresight or loosened their rigs. Most will say they left home on boresight and are surprised they are now off.
Once in a while, I will take their gun and my ammo and I shoot and their guns shoot beautifully, then hand them their corrected rifle with my ammo.... A few will suddenly drill the target, but most will still not shoot a group.
Even if we only consider the folks who show up with hand loads, the above comments still hold. If we assume they were loading good bullets with proper workmanship, the majority still can't shoot well, so it isn't just the ones shooting factory ammo.
The point of the story is easy. It takes a good rifle, good ammo, and good shooter, to get a good outcome.
Chicken or the egg
cat chasing his tail
cat chasing his tail
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