Resizing Failure

[Ringostar]

Do you know anyone close by that anneals their brass? They might help you soften them for sizing.

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

Do you know anyone close by that anneals their brass? They might help you soften them for sizing.

Unfortunately, no. It's really not enough brass to worry about and I still have the other rifle to use it in.

 

[Ringostar]

You can try the torch and socket method. It would be fine for your usage. Just don't overheat them. If you do a search on here, there were some very good pictures of the process a few years ago.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Interesting test, because it worked. Thanks. Contact point with the chamber was right at the neck/shoulder boundary.

View attachment 1032264

Having confirmed this and operating on the theory that it was hardened brass, I heated the neck/shoulder for a few seconds with a heat gun. That's hotter than a hair dryer but cooler than a torch. Then I ran it into the die and held it there for a 10 count. When I took it out, it was barely warm, but it chambered in the rifle. The comparator verified it had resized to 1.765. That's about .001" lower than the largest that has chambered. Now I have to decide whether to heat the old brass for the breakin or use the new. It's kind of a PITA to heat the brass.

Now run that case into the die while inked up. See where the die hits it. You'll probably want to re-ink it well.

You may've mentioned this and I missed it, but have you fired and sized a new piece of brass. If so, did it chamber ok after sizing?

Looks like a small difference in the radius at the neck/shoulder junction between the die and the chamber reamer used on the two different barrels. If so, pushing the shoulder back further on the old brass, then firing in the new chamber MIGHT fix it. It might fix it for 1 firing or for good. The brass may still want to go back to the same sharp radius as before. This may show up sooner or it may later, but it will likely rear it's head again. A lot depends on how many firings it had on it and how hot they were.

Bottom line, if new brass works fine after firing and sizing, there's you answer...move on.

Otherwise, you'll have to push the shoulder back more than would be normally necessary to "possibly" get it to move at the junction, with a die that isn't going to touch it there.

If you do go the route of pushing the shoulder back more but the die won't do it, I strongly encourage you to either have someone, or do it yourself, but remove the material from the bottom of the die and not the shell holder. Both will work but if you take it from the die, you need not have a dedicated shell holder and once done, it's done. Problem solved and it'll still work on other brass later down the road as well as working with virtually any shell holders. I just think it's the right way vs removing it from the shell holder, but again, either way will get the job done.

You might just try a different die, too but it appears that radius is sharper in the chamber than in the current die.

Hope this all makes sense. It's probably a combination of the chamber being at or below minimum spec and the radius. It may only be a very small difference and trimming the die down is all it takes. If you take .010 off of the die(won't hurt a thing) and push the shoulder back to a thou or two shorter than the brass that does chamber, and it now fits, it was close enough to say all is good and carry on. If it takes several thou shorter to get it to chamber, you need to go with new brass that does chamber after fired and sized.

Clear as mud? Either way, I think it's a simple fix, one way or another. BTW, it wouldn't be a bad idea to see if the bolt closes on a go gage. No big deal if it doesn't. You just need to trim from the die to cure that, anyway. But, the smith should do it or deepen the chamber...for free.
--Mike

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

You can try the torch and socket method. It would be fine for your usage. Just don't overheat them. If you do a search on here, there were some very good pictures of the process a few years ago.

I looked that up and it looked easy so I tried it. The 6.5 Swede fits nicely in a 12mm deepwell socket. I put it to the torch for 7 seconds. Long story short, it worked. All of the Norma brass is now loaded for breakin of the barrel. This gun was a Christmas present to myself and I can finally shoot it.

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

Now run that case into the die while inked up. See where the die hits it. You'll probably want to re-ink it well.

Too late. I've annealed the brass, successfully resized it, verified that with both the comparator and by chambering it, and reloaded it to be used as the breakin ammo. I plan to fire it for the first time tomorrow. The comparator told me that the shoulders were off from factory ammo and from ammo that successfully chambered. So I didn't think the contact point of the die was relevant.

You may've mentioned this and I missed it, but have you fired and sized a new piece of brass. If so, did it chamber ok after sizing?

That hasn't happened yet. The only thing I've done with the new brass is verify that it chambers before sizing.

Looks like a small difference in the radius at the neck/shoulder junction between the die and the chamber reamer used on the two different barrels. If so, pushing the shoulder back further on the old brass, then firing in the new chamber MIGHT fix it. It might fix it for 1 firing or for good. The brass may still want to go back to the same sharp radius as before. This may show up sooner or it may later, but it will likely rear it's head again. A lot depends on how many firings it had on it and how hot they were.

Pretty sure this brass had more than a few firings in the old chamber. It was my father-in-law's target gun back in the 1960s and 70s.

Bottom line, if new brass works fine after firing and sizing, there's you answer...move on.

I will begin using the new brass after the barrel breakin.

Otherwise, you'll have to push the shoulder back more than would be normally necessary to "possibly" get it to move at the junction, with a die that isn't going to touch it there.

If you do go the route of pushing the shoulder back more but the die won't do it, I strongly encourage you to either have someone, or do it yourself, but remove the material from the bottom of the die and not the shell holder. Both will work but if you take it from the die, you need not have a dedicated shell holder and once done, it's done. Problem solved and it'll still work on other brass later down the road as well as working with virtually any shell holders. I just think it's the right way vs removing it from the shell holder, but again, either way will get the job done.

The problem is, the RCBS die works well enough for the old gun, which apparently doesn't need the shoulders bumped back. If I shorten the die for the new gun, I will be shortening it for both guns.

You might just try a different die, too but it appears that radius is sharper in the chamber than in the current die.

Hope this all makes sense. It's probably a combination of the chamber being at or below minimum spec and the radius. It may only be a very small difference and trimming the die down is all it takes. If you take .010 off of the die(won't hurt a thing) and push the shoulder back to a thou or two shorter than the brass that does chamber, and it now fits, it was close enough to say all is good and carry on. If it takes several thou shorter to get it to chamber, you need to go with new brass that does chamber after fired and sized.

Clear as mud? Either way, I think it's a simple fix, one way or another. BTW, it wouldn't be a bad idea to see if the bolt closes on a go gage. No big deal if it doesn't. You just need to trim from the die to cure that, anyway. But, the smith should do it or deepen the chamber...for free.
--Mike

Thanks, it did all make sense, but since it's a brand new factory nothing special hunting rifle, I'll just wait and see how the new brass works after fl resizing and fire forming after the breakin. If this die doesn't get the job done for the new brass, I will just dedicate it to the old Mauser and try a new die for the new rifle.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Too late. I've annealed the brass, successfully resized it, verified that with both the comparator and by chambering it, and reloaded it to be used as the breakin ammo. I plan to fire it for the first time tomorrow. The comparator told me that the shoulders were off from factory ammo and from ammo that successfully chambered. So I didn't think the contact point of the die was relevant.



That hasn't happened yet. The only thing I've done with the new brass is verify that it chambers before sizing.



Pretty sure this brass had more than a few firings in the old chamber. It was my father-in-law's target gun back in the 1960s and 70s.



I will begin using the new brass after the barrel breakin.



The problem is, the RCBS die works well enough for the old gun, which apparently doesn't need the shoulders bumped back. If I shorten the die for the new gun, I will be shortening it for both guns.



Thanks, it did all make sense, but since it's a brand new factory nothing special hunting rifle, I'll just wait and see how the new brass works after fl resizing and fire forming after the breakin. If this die doesn't get the job done for the new brass, I will just dedicate it to the old Mauser and try a new die for the new rifle.

Glad you got it. Be careful not to over anneal with that method. I think your die will work fine with the new brass. Annealing the old seems to validate that.
Good job and good luck.

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

Glad you got it. Be careful not to over anneal with that method. I think your die will work fine with the new brass. Annealing the old seems to validate that.
Good job and good luck.

Thanks again. I'm pretty sure that I didn't go to far. The brass never turned red and I still had to put a lot of pressure on the press to get that shoulder to move. I read that others use 8 seconds of heat for .223 brass, so I thought 7 seconds for this brass would be conservative.

 

[dedogs]

I will begin using the new brass after the barrel breakin.

Why not use the new brass for break-in? Then you will have new brass fire-formed to the new chamber. dedogs

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

Why not use the new brass for break-in? Then you will have new brass fire-formed to the new chamber. dedogs

I certainly could, but after all the time I invested in trying to resize the old brass and all the knowledge that I gained that ultimately lead to success, loading the brass up for the breakin seemed like the thing to do. I might never use the brass again after the breakin, but I will measure it and compare it to the new brass after that is fire formed and thus learn something about my rifle, the old brass or the new brass (or something) from that.

 

[chop house]

all the knowledge that I gained

now just watch out for donuts... thickening in the exact area where the interference was occuring. you mentioned it was vintage target brass... may have lots of reloads on it. annealing was likely a good idea anyway, in that 'case'. also measure od of loaded round, and additionally do 'drop down' test of fired cases to ensure you have proper neck clearance. modern chamber likely tighter than m-38.

by the way, i love the steel in those old swedes

 

[243winxb]

I still had to put a lot of pressure on the press to get that shoulder to move.

Muscle

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

by the way, i love the steel in those old swedes

It kind of boggles my mind what was done to this gun. It was sporterized, mainly by just cutting down on the stock, but then the barrel was cut to only 18". It must have been quite a sight when he was shooting it at the range. Flame shot 18" out of the barrel with the reloads he got from his buddy. It's still very accurate.