Remington Brass Quality Surprise

[RonAKA]

I'm gearing up to rebarrel my Remington 700 in .264 WM to a 6.5 RM. 6.5 RM brass is not easy to come by, but I did find 158 cases of new Remington brand brass. Not my first choice of course, which would have been Lapua, but Lapua has never made it to my knowledge and never will. No other cases that are easy to resize to 6.5 RM either. In any case I have them, and did an initial weighing of them to start to see what I have. No history on the source of the brass and I don't even know if they are all from the same batch or not.

Now that I have all the weighing done, and compared it to the results of a Precision Rifle Blog comparison of brass by brands, I am now pleasantly surprised. These are the raw results of the statistical analysis:

Number of cases: 158
Average weight: 214.16 grains
Standard Deviation: 0.754 grains
Extreme Spread: 3.5 grains

When I compared these raw numbers to the results reported by the PRB report, it kind of comes in mid pack. However, they were weighing .223 Remington brass which is much lighter at about 93 grains. So I adjusted the raw numbers above in proportion to the relative weight 93/214 of the cases. That brought the Standard Deviation down to .327 grains, and the extreme spread to 1.5 grains. On the PRB range of results that places this Remington Brass just behind Lapua for accuracy. Not totally sure it is fair to compare cases that are so much different in weight, but I couldn't find comparable case weights. I would expect 6.5x284's would have been a better comparison.

The neck thickness is thick at 0.015-0.016 but quite consistent. I think that may be a benefit, as it will bulk up the loaded case to fill the SAAMI chamber I will be getting??

Any thoughts as to how best to divide up the batch? Just out of convenience, I was thinking of throwing out the 8 worst outliers, and using them for foulers or whatever. I would then divide the rest into three groups of 50. My longer term plan is to sort them based on volume after they have been fired and trimmed up.

 

[ireload2]

Graph your brass by using bins. You can try .2 increments .3 increments or .5 grn increments depending your own inclination.

Then examine the curve for a normal distribution. If you have 2 distinct humps then you probably have 2 or more lots of brass.
For your best lot of brass pick the middle 4 sigmas. The lower tail will be another lot and the upper tail will be a lot. All of this picking and choosing can be some what handled by your own judgment.

The heavier brass from the top group can be used for working up max loads if you are going to shoot high pressure loads. These heaviest cases will have the least volume. Loads worked up in them will be safe in the lighter cases.
Your large lot will be your source of match brass. The light cases can be used for foulers or they can be used for spares when one of your main lot dies.
Just some ideas. But they are all based on culling out the worst of both the highs and lows.

I had some old .221 Rem boxed brass and a number of them split.
Keep your eye on the 6.5RM brass. It may be old and in need of annealing.

 

[RonAKA]

This is my high tech distribution of weight "graph". Basically 0.1 grain increments, lightest on left and heaviest on right. One hump or two hump camel?? I kind of see a main hump toward the heavier end and a bit of a second hump on the left. Not sure though. If you gloss over those gaps, it is more of a triangle building up slowly to a peak and then rapidly dropping off as you go up in weight...

 

[Zero333]

I am extremely happy with Winchester 243win brass.

3 different lots and several dozen pieces from factory ammo.

Total 291 pcs

Difference from lightest to heaviest is 2.1 gr
Heaviest 161.4 gr
Lightest 159.3 gr

If I was to cull the 4 lightest and the 3 heaviest, the spread would be 1.5 gr.

On the other hand... I have just about the same number of Winchester 308win brass Also 3 different lots and a bunch of pieces from factory ammo, and the spread is over 6 gr. !

 

[ireload2]

On cases that large I would use a .3grn or .5gn bin size. One tenth of a grain is such fine granularity compared to the total weight of a case as to be insignificant. It looks like you might have 2 or 3 different lots

I hope you have a digital scale because that old Redding scale will give you a headache with that many cases.

This is my high tech distribution of weight "graph". Basically 0.1 grain increments, lightest on left and heaviest on right. One hump or two hump camel?? I kind of see a main hump toward the heavier end and a bit of a second hump on the left. Not sure though. If you gloss over those gaps, it is more of a triangle building up slowly to a peak and then rapidly dropping off as you go up in weight...

 

[MagnumManiac]

Wow, if you guys can see a VOLUME difference in .1gr brass WEIGHT variation, then your burettes are better than mine.
In my own testing, even a 3gr variance in brass weight showed no correlation to volume difference measured in tenths of CC's. Grains of water was also less than readable on my electronic scale. It required a 5gr brass weight difference and higher to register a difference. Also, I had Remington, Winchester, Lapua and Norma cases as comparison. Rem and Win were, on average, within 5gr of each other, however, the internal VOLUME was still more than .4CC's different. I sectioned a case from each batch, their internal shapes were very different.
Now, this was with large cases, so smaller cases may show a difference, but, I don't see it would be significant. I had 3 batches of 300RUM brass used to form 338 Edge cases, each batch had a different internal volume and brass weight, lucky I didn't mix them up, that's headache ville.

Cheers.

 

[ireload2]

Water and powder have similar specific gravity - that is about 1 gram per CC surprise surprise..

Brass has a specific gravity about 8X that of water or powder. So what if your scale can read one tenth of a grain?
Brass is so dense that it takes 8 grains of it to take up the space of 1 grain of water or powder. You can use that relative specific gravity to understand that .2 of a grain weight of a case does change the internal capacity very much and as you say maybe none. If the .1 or .2 grains is in the rim thickness no change in volume may result. If it is .2 grain difference in a .22 Hornet case it might barely be detectable. In a .378 Wby case who cares about .2grn in case weight?

Wow, if you guys can see a VOLUME difference in .1gr brass WEIGHT variation, then your burettes are better than mine.
In my own testing, even a 3gr variance in brass weight showed no correlation to volume difference measured in tenths of CC's. Grains of water was also less than readable on my electronic scale. It required a 5gr brass weight difference and higher to register a difference. Also, I had Remington, Winchester, Lapua and Norma cases as comparison. Rem and Win were, on average, within 5gr of each other, however, the internal VOLUME was still more than .4CC's different. I sectioned a case from each batch, their internal shapes were very different.
Now, this was with large cases, so smaller cases may show a difference, but, I don't see it would be significant. I had 3 batches of 300RUM brass used to form 338 Edge cases, each batch had a different internal volume and brass weight, lucky I didn't mix them up, that's headache ville.

Cheers.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I also use Remington 6.5 RM brass as they are the ONLY company that makes it. Actually not sure if it is still in production to be honest.

Anyhow, l sorted my brass the same as you took the lightest and heaviest cases in the bunch and use them for foulers and sighters. Though the accuracy with the oddball cases was nearly identical to the rest.

One thing to really watch for on Remington brass is neck walls that are much thicker on one side. Sometimes you will find a neck wall that is .002" to .003" thicker on one side. Others might be very uniform, bit just watch out for it. I turn all my necks to where I take off the high sides and touch up the low side just enough to take about .001" off and shine it up. This way I know my neck walls are perfectly uniform.

Primer pockets are usually a little shallow too and the flash holes may have burrs in them, so it definitely helps to uniform the pockets a little deeper and deburr the flash holes.

After your first firing, anneal all of your cases prior to sizing. The old 6.5 RM brass isn't very soft or pliable and headspacing will be hard to control. Once annealed, set your FL die to bump the shoulder back .002" to .004", or whatever your preference is.

The case length may also vary a good bit after the first couple firings. My original trim length with the new brass was 2.1670", but I let my necks grow to (or beyond) 2.1740" then set that as my trim length so I would have a little bit longer necks.

 

[RonAKA]

On cases that large I would use a .3grn or .5gn bin size. One tenth of a grain is such fine granularity compared to the total weight of a case as to be insignificant. It looks like you might have 2 or 3 different lots.
I hope you have a digital scale because that old Redding scale will give you a headache with that many cases.

I had to weigh them all, so it seemed convenient to put them in rows of 0.1 grains and then decide after I was done how to group them.

Yes, all I have is that 50 year old Redding #1. I love it for measuring powder, but it is not the ideal tool to simply weigh an unknown weight object. I just don't do that often enough to justify another scale.

 

[RonAKA]

Wow, if you guys can see a VOLUME difference in .1gr brass WEIGHT variation, then your burettes are better than mine.
In my own testing, even a 3gr variance in brass weight showed no correlation to volume difference measured in tenths of CC's.

I have no plans to track the original weight and compare it to case volume. I've weighed this lot of brass for the last time. It is a bit of a pain in the rear when you only have a balance beam scale. When I check the volume it will be with powder. I am only using weight now because I think measuring volume is a bit of a waste of time until the cases have been fired once.

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

With what they are charging us for brass today they should all be delivering Lapua quality!

 

[RonAKA]

I also use Remington 6.5 RM brass as they are the ONLY company that makes it. Actually not sure if it is still in production to be honest.

Anyhow, l sorted my brass the same as you took the lightest and heaviest cases in the bunch and use them for foulers and sighters. Though the accuracy with the oddball cases was nearly identical to the rest.

One thing to really watch for on Remington brass is neck walls that are much thicker on one side. Sometimes you will find a neck wall that is .002" to .003" thicker on one side. Others might be very uniform, bit just watch out for it. I turn all my necks to where I take off the high sides and touch up the low side just enough to take about .001" off and shine it up. This way I know my neck walls are perfectly uniform.

Primer pockets are usually a little shallow too and the flash holes may have burrs in them, so it definitely helps to uniform the pockets a little deeper and deburr the flash holes.

After your first firing, anneal all of your cases prior to sizing. The old 6.5 RM brass isn't very soft or pliable and headspacing will be hard to control. Once annealed, set your FL die to bump the shoulder back .002" to .004", or whatever your preference is.

The case length may also vary a good bit after the first couple firings. My original trim length with the new brass was 2.1670", but I let my necks grow to (or beyond) 2.1740" then set that as my trim length so I would have a little bit longer necks.

Thank you for the comments about your Remington brass experience. I certainly will consider them in preparing this brass.

All I have for measuring neck thickness is a vernier gauge. Not the best, but so far as best I can measure the thickness from side to side varies by about 1 thou, 0.015 to 0.016". Will have to do more measuring to see how good or bad it is.

I don't see any burrs on the inside of the case at the flash hole, but again have not looked at a whole bunch of them. I worry about some reports that shooter can do as much damage reaming flash holes as they do good. For sure I will clean up the primer pockets.

I was thinking about annealing before I load the first time, but just before loading powder and bullets. Have you ever annealed without resizing after?

Lengths now seem to be a very consistent 2.161". My normal practice is to simply use the fixed length Lee tool to trim the cases all the same. Will have to see what I get for a throat in my barrel, before I decide if I need more length or not. I find it quite convenient to simply trim after every firing, as the Lee tool is so simple and quick to use. What I am finding on my 6BR where I only resize 2/3rds of the neck, and bump the shoulder by 0.001" is that the cases do not grow. The belted mag cartridge may be another matter, and I'll have to change my thinking. I won't have a fancy die either. I will have a RCBS FL die with the neck honed out, and the internal decaping expander assembly replaced with a Forster assembly. I like Forster because you can select the ball size and it is located high in the case, just below the neck of the die. It is convenient that the Forster guts fit the RCBS...

Again, good comments. I appreciate it!

 

[Shaggy357]

I have only put together "exceptional" lots of brass a couple of times. I followed the suggestions of a former bench rest shooter that was capable of keeping his shots in the eye of a fly at 200. He said to take 200 brass, full length size, trim all to same length (length of the shortest), true primer pockets, debur flash holes, and turn necks. When he had done everything possible to remove any variations within his capabilities, he would then do the weight and sort. His theory was that with 200 cases, he was sure to get a full box of 50 brass that were nearly, or as closely within his facilities, exactly the same. He also bought his bullets in the 100 count box that were 5 in a plastic sleeve. He would weight and measure his 500 bullets and put them in groups by weight and length from base to end of bearing surface. Anyway, moral to the story is; I was taught to remove as many variables as possible when processing the brass. Did you check for burrs in the flash holes, neck thickness, etc on your heavier brass? Your spread is just larger than I recall, but then again, I don't recall what I did last weekend...

It takes time, but if you continue the process of keeping everything as close to identical as possible, you will see benefits from your labors.

Good luck,

Steve

 

[RonAKA]

Did you check for burrs in the flash holes, neck thickness, etc on your heavier brass? Your spread is just larger than I recall, but then again, I don't recall what I did last weekend...

Where do the burrs on the flash hole typically occur? I've never seen anything bad, but I have been shooting mostly Lapua lately. These I, have not noticed anything, but perhaps not looking well enough.

I've measured neck thickness on the very lightest few cartridges and the very heaviest. Could not measure any significant difference. They all are in the 0.016-0.017" thickness range. Unfortunately in some cases that variation exists from one side to the other.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Thank you for the comments about your Remington brass experience. I certainly will consider them in preparing this brass.

All I have for measuring neck thickness is a vernier gauge. Not the best, but so far as best I can measure the thickness from side to side varies by about 1 thou, 0.015 to 0.016". Will have to do more measuring to see how good or bad it is.

I don't see any burrs on the inside of the case at the flash hole, but again have not looked at a whole bunch of them. I worry about some reports that shooter can do as much damage reaming flash holes as they do good. For sure I will clean up the primer pockets.

I was thinking about annealing before I load the first time, but just before loading powder and bullets. Have you ever annealed without resizing after?

Lengths now seem to be a very consistent 2.161". My normal practice is to simply use the fixed length Lee tool to trim the cases all the same. Will have to see what I get for a throat in my barrel, before I decide if I need more length or not. I find it quite convenient to simply trim after every firing, as the Lee tool is so simple and quick to use. What I am finding on my 6BR where I only resize 2/3rds of the neck, and bump the shoulder by 0.001" is that the cases do not grow. The belted mag cartridge may be another matter, and I'll have to change my thinking. I won't have a fancy die either. I will have a RCBS FL die with the neck honed out, and the internal decaping expander assembly replaced with a Forster assembly. I like Forster because you can select the ball size and it is located high in the case, just below the neck of the die. It is convenient that the Forster guts fit the RCBS...

Again, good comments. I appreciate it!

The Redding Concentricity gauge is what I use to measure neck wall thickness and it is very accurate. It is an excellent tool for checking the thickness at any specific point on the neck from top to bottom and all the way around the circumference.

When I say 'debur' the flash holes, Im not implying that you 'ream' them. A flash hole deburring tool does not change the diameter of the flash hole in any way, if it did, you could say that it is reaming it, but it's not. The 'reamer' on the tool is actually a hair smaller than the flash hole diameter and only removes any brass burs from the flash hole punch that may have been left behind when the brass was made or any other debris that may be obstructing the hole. Also a great tool to have on hand if you ever tumble your brass with corn cob or walnut media because sometimes those small pieces of media get stuck in the flash hole. Of course a de-priming pin can usually remove the media as well.

I've never annealed AFTER re-sizing. I anneal fired cases, then size. The whole point of annealing is to soften the brass so that your neck tension and headspacing does not vary when sized.
Prior to annealing, you may be getting varying headspacing and neck tension when you size due to spring back of the work hardened brass. So if you anneal after re-sizing, you'll still have varying neck tension and headspacing. Then youll have to size it all again after the hardness has been removed to make the brass consistent. No sense in sizing twice.

 

[arnie]

Be sure to measure neck thickness on Remington brass . I have found more than one caliber that all of a sudden a few bullets almost fell in the sized case and found about .003 difference in that cases neck thickness .I just discard those .

 

[RonAKA]

When I say 'debur' the flash holes, Im not implying that you 'ream' them. A flash hole deburring tool does not change the diameter of the flash hole in any way, if it did, you could say that it is reaming it, but it's not. The 'reamer' on the tool is actually a hair smaller than the flash hole diameter and only removes any brass burs from the flash hole punch that may have been left behind when the brass was made or any other debris that may be obstructing the hole.

Thank you for the further information. I did a closer examination under a brighter light and do see some burring now. Will have to look into a deburring tool now. If you look for trouble you usually find it!

I did check the primer pocket depth on a few and it seems to be a pretty consistent 0.128". Seems to me that should be deep enough if I keep the pockets clean.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Be sure to measure neck thickness on Remington brass . I have found more than one caliber that all of a sudden a few bullets almost fell in the sized case and found about .003 difference in that cases neck thickness .I just discard those .

I take it you were using a bushing die without an expander ball to size the necks?

 

[ireload2]

With Remington brass the burrs are like a kings crown surrounding the flash hole on the inside of the case. They are almost like a funnel.
They can be difficult to remove with a normal deburring tool and process.
What works best is to take a Lee hand decapping punch and put it inside the case as if you were going to decap it. Give the decapping punch a whack with a plastic hammer to flatten the burr down against the inside of the case head. With the burr petals mashed down they form a sharp angle where they are bent over at the flash hole. This makes them much easier to cut off with the flash hole deburring tools.
You can try deburring both ways and I think you will find that flattening the burrs is much easier.

Where do the burrs on the flash hole typically occur? I've never seen anything bad, but I have been shooting mostly Lapua lately. These I, have not noticed anything, but perhaps not looking well enough.

I've measured neck thickness on the very lightest few cartridges and the very heaviest. Could not measure any significant difference. They all are in the 0.016-0.017" thickness range. Unfortunately in some cases that variation exists from one side to the other.

 

[arnie]

I take it you were using a bushing die without an expander ball to size the necks?

No I was using a FL die since it was for a Garand .The expander didn't even touch the inside of the neck on the ones that had thin necks .