Reloading Technique Critique

[MVW]

Gents,

I am probably just chasing my tail here, but perhaps someone either can tell me to leave well enough alone or suggest what I might be doing wrong. I have been fighting with getting consistent reloads for this gun (Savage #12, F/TR) for a while. Probably not the gun, but one never knows. I am getting Standard Deviations of ~10 and Extreme Spreads of 20-30, which I suspect could be greatly improved on. Not looking for any specific velocity just consistency and hoping that someone can spot something obvious that I am doing wrong.

The Data:

New Lapua Brass, full length-sized and trimmed to 2.005". Deburred inside and out. Neck turned to 0.0135 +/- about 0.0001 - sometimes less. Cleaned up the primer pockets. Brass is sorted by weight (but not volume). I have also done all of this with Lapua brass that has been fired multiple times and get about the same results.

I neck size with a Redding bushing die and rezise about 1/2 of the neck using a 0.335 bushing (also 0.0333 & 0.334).

I have an milligram scale and using 43.00 +/- .02 GN Varget (I have varied this in the past). Speeds in the range 2,708 - 2736.

I am using 175 GN Sierra HPBT's and I weigh them again to =/- .02 GN. I also check the bearing surface to make sure they are the same.

I am using CCI BR-2 primers, and yes, I have weighed those also.

I am using Redding Comp seating die and seating 0.02" off the lands (I have varied this in the past).

For new brass I can't imagine annealing would help, but it seems like neck tension must be the issue. I was thinking of getting a K&M Arbor press that measures seating force, but before I spend anymore $$ I thought I see if others have recommendations.

I probably have other data if needed, but this seemed like everything.

Thanks, Mike

 

[nra-for-life]

hi, ive got some questions

what caliber is this for???
what type of results or you getting (group sizes)?

when you turn your brass to .0135 i am surprised that you are able to get it to within .0001 simply because the brass from the factory should have some occasional spots on the neck that could be as thin as .013 or .0125 (depending on the caliber). what tool are you using to confirm this .0001 degree of precision??

the km tool is nice.... if you want another toy it is cool. the wilson seater is better than the redding IMO also so that may be another perk.. the km is interesting, keep in mind it gives you a measurement that is not repeatable so you really have to be paying attention while you use it. it is good to document results as you go, but it is a great sorting tool. one thing you will find is that your neck tension will correspond directly with your bullet seating depth....

Higher tension=longer length.....

This leads me to ask the question, How much variation are you getting in your overall length and what tool are you using to measure it? If your getting some variation in overall length the km can defiantly help to verify the cause is neck tension. if you have no or very little variation in seating depth then the km becomes another sorting tool.

 

[mytwo60]

I still don't understand why people neck size only. I mean do people actually settle for LARGER group size so that their brass can last longer?

My head is spinning thinking about this.

 

[MVW]

NRA - I am reloading 308.

The neck turner is a K&M and I am using a K&M inside ball mic (modified Mitikybo). I am only neck turning to make the necks consistent and taking it down to 13.5 seems to do that as the Lapua Brass is plenty thick in the neck - at least the lot that I have.

I am using Bob Green's comparator, which is basically sized to the throat of the 308. I am seating to a tolerance of 0.001. I have used the Hornady, but it hits on an arbitrary point on the bullet and compared to the Green shows more in the 0.003 difference. Over time I have used both, but the Green just makes more sense to me - not that you can see any difference in the shooting.

I often shoot about 3/4 MOA in the vertical at 100 yards - probably the shooter not the gun, but at longer distances I assume that different speeds equate to greater vertical spread.

I am using CCI primers, but I have WIN primers that I could try. That is one variable that I haven't varied since the early days.

Mike

 

[dansig]

With all that work reloading and still shooting 3/4" moa at 100yards....

I'd check the scope first, then the barrel, if both are fine then the dude holding the trigger needs some adjustments

With new untrimmed lapua brass , variable seeting depth, about .05" difference and .1gr difference in powder load I still shoot well under 1/2 moa at 100 yards, usually .3" groups

 

[BoydAllen]

I with 3/4" vertical at 100 yd., I would leave the minutiae alone and look at bedding and tune first. If you can get away with repeatedly neck sizing, without the bolt lift getting tight, you are not making much pressure. The old idea that FL sizing is bad for accuracy came about because of inferior dies. With proper dies, this is not an issue. How is your rifle bedded, and how did you work up your load? How is the rifle supported, and how are you holding it? How heavy is the trigger pull? How are you cleaning the inside of your case necks?

 

[nra-for-life]

hmmm i would say that given the tolerances you are loading your ammunition to, something is not right....either the load(s) your using dont like the gun or their is something out of wack on the gun and or scope.

ive been able to average 3/4 moa on my cheapo savage 22-250 and im not loading to your tolerances. my gun and ammo is both lower grade than yours.


curious that you are getting .003 variance on overall length with the hornady comparitor but only .001 with the bob green??? maybe your bullets are not all that uniform?? at any rate, your groups i would think should be better regardless of this.

 

[MVW]

The gun is a stock Savage F/TR, so it is a bedded laminated stock.

 

[BoydAllen]

No stock that I am aware of, pillars or not, comes bedded from the factory. Perhaps there has not been enough written on the subject, because published articles are driven by advertising dollars, but proper bedding is the foundation of good accuracy. Spending the exceptional effort that you seem to be on reloading details without first having the rifle bedded by someone with competition rifle building credentials is seriously getting the cart before the horse.

 

[MVW]

Thanks for the suggestion on the bedding. I'll see if I can find someone local that can help me with that.

 

[bozo699]

No stock that I am aware of, pillars or not, comes bedded from the factory. Perhaps there has not been enough written on the subject, because published articles are driven by advertising dollars, but proper bedding is the foundation of good accuracy. Spending the exceptional effort that you seem to be on reloading details without first having the rifle bedded by someone with competition rifle building credentials is seriously getting the cart before the horse.

Spot on, Properly being bedded is SOOOOOOOOO important
Wayne.

 

[K22]

No stock that I am aware of, pillars or not, comes bedded from the factory. Perhaps there has not been enough written on the subject, because published articles are driven by advertising dollars, but proper bedding is the foundation of good accuracy. Spending the exceptional effort that you seem to be on reloading details without first having the rifle bedded by someone with competition rifle building credentials is seriously getting the cart before the horse.

The Browning A and X bolt receivers are glass bedded. I have one of each and they are the most accurate out of the box factory rifles I've shot. Anyway, I couldn't agree more, proper bedding and I'll include scope mounting are the first steps on the road to accuracy and precison.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Once you have the accuracy issues sorted out (it should be no more than 1/2" center to center at 100 yards - more like .3-.4" Then you need to ask yourself a question about the velocity variation:

Is the variation caused by something not right in the build-up of the ammunition or is it that the rifle just doesn't like the load?

The reason I ask is this: I have shot a lot of loads during testing. Some shot well, others didn't, but velocity variation changed from charge to charge. For example, my current match load showed a 10 fps ES and an SD of 4. A charge a little lower shows an ES of 36+. It has to do with how my rifle likes the loads. Both were assembled and tested with the same care over multiple sessions.

Last question: Which chronograph? Have you cross-checked your results against another chrono? I've seen chrono problems that look like high ES on a load.

Good luck,
Keith

 

[Leaddog]

Before you get into bedding issues, etc., try this.....

Sort your bullets base to ogive. I know there is discussion about this way or bearing surface, but Bryan Litz recommends base to ogive.

Start seating your bullets further off the lands. Try .010 - .020. Test 5 at each .005 change. Shoot 5 shot groups at 100 yards and chrono.

Reduce your charge and look for a velocity in the 2650 - 2685 range. Many times a little slower will yield very good results. As a long time .308 shooter, I've never had much luck running 175's at your speeds. Slower has always been better and seated further off the lands.

Run your tests with a reduced load first, to obtain accuracy, then start adjusting your seating depth to tighten your ES/SD numbers. I would however, back away from the lands at least .005 before doing any testing. If your bullets aren't sorted perfectly, and not seated exactly the same, you may have your current load at .002 jumping and some just kissing the lands. Check your loaded cartridge consistency by measuring from base to ogive to make sure they are the same.

 

[Shynloco]

I see alot of good suggestion to consider, with the bedding issue being of primary concern. But I'll share this with you as something to consider because alot of your basic detail is good (IMHO). But I might suggest you either check the shoulders on your brass for uniformity or FL size all of them. I tried both methods and have found that depending on how tight your chamber is, you could have a variance in shoulders and still not have difficulty in closing the bolt. The more important thing, at least on my .308, is that it loves the Sierra 168gr HPBT using either 42 grs of Varget or RL15 with a slight deviation upward. But when I went to the 175's (that Sierra said would actually shoot better) I had a drop off in accuracy, never mind the wider range in velocity. I've got to believe (possibly wrongly) is the rifle may just not like that weight of bullet as well as another. But I'd definitely take a look at my casings because I use nothing but Lapua and I used to only Neck Size my brass (in my 6mmbr) with a deviation of only .002 in the shoulders, but when I went back to FL sizing all my brass and had the identical shoulder setting, the accuracy improved. Might be nothing, but might be something to consider. Oh BTW, my rifles are Savage Model 12 Target rifles.

 

[MVW]

This very helpful. I was trying to get a good stable load as verification of my reloading technique. I was then planning to run ladder tests to fine tune the load and seating depth to dial everything in. Realizing that the velocity stats may in fact be less related to reloading technique and more an indicator of the overall system is something that I have not considered.

A couple of points of clarification:

I did FL size the brass initially and relative to the Redding Comparison case that comes with their comparator, most, but not, all of the cases are about -0.010. I didn't see any real connection between SD and shoulder setback.

I am using a C.E.D Chronoy and I washed all of the cases in mineral spirits to get the case lube out and then brushed them with a Redding nylon neck brush.

I also measured the bullets ogive to base. I put a few in that varied by .005, but those all ended up in the middle, so that didn't seem to make a difference. It is something I have been tracking though and keep an eye on that.

With the Bob Green caliper tool, I am pretty certain that I am a consistent distance from the lands, but I will back that off some and back off on the powder and see what I find.

 

[BoydAllen]

My point wasn't that non-reloading issues would influence your SD, but that since your concern for vertical is part of an overall quest for accuracy, that before you put any more wear on your barrel, and spend any more time on load development, with all that that entails, that you need to have your rifle's action bedded to its stock, that skipping this step is a serious oversight. While we are on rifle prep., what sort of scope rings and bases do you have on this rifle? Did you bed the bases to the receiver, and if they are metal to metal with the scope, lap, and or bed the rings? There are steps that need to be followed before serious work should be done.

The reason that I asked about how you clean necks in the earlier post, is that having uniform bullet seating force, is related to uniformity of velocity, and shooters sometimes make the mistake of thinking that having the interiors of their necks free of all powder fouling is desirable. It is not. A light coating of powder fouling on the inside of necks tends to help make bullet seating force more uniform.

Another thing that will probably improve your cases' uniformity is annealing, but I caution you that there is a ton of bad advice out there, both in print and on the internet. If you want a good source of information, look up what Ken Light has written on the subject, and get back to me if you want to try annealing. A friend has done it with a few changes to his Hornady setup (They make a kit.) and he is getting much more uniform bullet seating force, and better, and more consistent accuracy. Many successful thousand yard benchrest shooters anneal their cases, but it has to be done right.

 

[Elkbane]

MVW,
I agree with Boyd - I would bed the action (first) before doing anything else. The Savage actions can be really sensitive to action screw torque (if unbedded - less so if bedded), and the effect, usually displays on target as vertical (I shoot 4 Savages). Based on the detail you've already displayed in your reloading description, this is something you can do yourself - you may want to check out SavageShooters.com for a few process descriptions. And on your action, the rear tang needs to float slightly, not make hard contact with the stock. I'd go with Devcon steel bed - it's less viscous and easier to use for a beginner - stays in place rather than running.

AFTER you have it bedded, I'd also look at bedding the bases if you are using a 1 piece rail - we usually assume actions are straight on top, but IME, production rifle actions rarely are - you can check this by using a straight edge or by installing just the front or rear base screws and see if you get any "lift" on the other end of the base. If you do, that stress or deflection is imparted to the scope unlless you bed the base to the action.

If the vertical continues - you may want to look back at what Shynloco wrote about shoulder position re' neck sizing, especially if you have re-trimmed any of the cases since they were new. Without a fixed position to the shoulder (imposed by a F/L sizing die), you may have some varying length of case necks holding the bullet. Your cases are pretty short to start with (2.005 vs 2.015 spec). I'd F/L size them, then trim them all to the shortest length to make the NECK lengths all the same. Point being that small difference to a small number makes a greater impact than the same difference to a larger number. If you are sizing only half the neck, you only have .147" gripping the bullet and it doesn't take much of change in the length of the sized neck surface to have an inpact....
Elkbane

 

[MVW]

I am using a one peice EGW scope base and nightforce rings. I have a lapping set, but everything seems to line up, so I didn't mess with it.

The Lapua brass is pretty short to start with. After FL sizing in a Redding FL sizing die, I just took a little off and that worked out to be 2.005" I don't think any of them are close to 2.015" and they would need to stretch a lot to get there.

I have read the Ken Light info, but haven't made that step, because as mentioned, there appears to be a lot of disinformation out there.

Bedding. My only reluctance to doing it myself is there is not much room for errors in the learning curve. I have a pretty good gunsmith in Virgina, but I'd need to confirm that he has a good track record on stock work.

I have heard of bullets bonding to the case neck if over cleaned. I think Charlie Watson had a recent thread on that. I just clean initially to get the size lube out and normally only lightly brush the neck. I haven't tumbled the cases because I have them weight sorted. I just wipe off the outside of the neck(only) with a couple of twists of steel wool.

 

[Redhighpower]

I have a savage F/TR stock. Its Pillar bedded however the Action sits on wood. I'm sure they are all that way. I would glass bed the action and float the barrel. I would suggest that you make sure that the two front action are torqued to the proper levels There is an article in this web site that indicated at least 30in-lbs on the front two action screws and 5in-lbs on the rear screw. The other issue you may have is Donuts forming in the base of the neck on your cases. I use a FL S die and use .001 neck tension, one of my buddies tried neck sizing and developed donuts. I put my barreled action in a prone stock with a Widden Bedding block.