Reloading pistol for self-defense

[David Milisock]

A theory question that has direct implications for the real world:

While the bullet chosen for self-defense pistol ammo is fairly readily apparent, the powder chosen is not.

Naturally you want to go with the powder the powder manufacturers recommend for the bullet weight being used.

My question more affects the charge or amount of powder used as it will determine the velocity of the round fired. I often see pistol rounds going through 20 to 22 in of gelatin which if the round Fired doesn't hit something solid in a self-defense shooting, it has the potential to go through the Target and endanger innocent bystanders.

So..... questions : . Does this affect your choice and quantity of powder in the powder charge? What velocity for what grain weight projectile do you try to reload for ? Or do you just want a bullet going as fast as possible? Is 22 inches of ballistic gelatin a reasonable facsimile of the circumstance of a self-defense shooting? What if anything else do you do to be as safe and responsible as possible in loading yourself defense rounds?

My goal is to be wise and responsible in my reloading, to not endanger others and also not leave myself open to a criminal or civil charge in how I choose my loads.

I understand reloading self-defense ammo itself could be used against me, but I don't consider that a meritorious argument and still choose to reload my self-defense rounds.

Thanks for any help on the questions I asked above.

In my opinion traditional defensive handgun cartridges are interesting. For my wife I load a very fast powder because she has a snub nose revolver. I.E. Red Dot or American Select for 110 grain 38 Special loads. The charge is medium, the projectile is light to control recoil and flash, it also limits interior wall penetration.

For my 357 Sig I'm using Long Shot to reach true 357 Sig velocities in a full sized pistol with 124 grain projectiles.

For my 45+P 230 grain loads I'm using HS6 in a full sized pistol.

I can't remember my 9 x 19 load but that is in a Glock 19, a shorter barrel.

In any case the barrel length is significant for handgun loads in term of powder choice.

You will never always have the perfect ammunition for every situation.

My defensive concept is AVOID, EVADE and SURVIVE.

 

[Oso]

This video was in my recommendations by YouTube. The timing couldn’t be more perfect. Heads up on salty language in video. It has some entertainment value and shows how everything is going to over-penetrate.

 

[Chestnut]

I love to play with GRT. I've never plugged in my pistol loads, that said I'll echo using a faster powder like titegroup or similar. After reading this thread i ran my pistol loads and feel a change in powder is needed. Untill 10 min ago i was running CFE pistol but that powder doesn't burn well in 45 with 3.5" barrel length. 75% powder burn = large fireball and inconsisten burn rate. VV n300 looks like it burns well in a 3.5" barrel.

I bought the CFE pistol because that's what i could get at the time. Guess it'll be getting used as fertilizer now.

 

[BountyHunter]

You are grossly naive if you think a lawyer or judge is going to allow you to testify on ballistics of a round as you are not trained and certified in ballistics!! Reloading maybe, ballistics and terminal effects, no way in hell. Ballistics testing today can easily determine what powder, what bullets, brand primers are left in the case vs the what the mftr actually used etc. They will easily determine you used handloads and rip you a new one on the stand. Practice with a handload that mirrors the real self-defense load. No need to make their job easier for them but free to do what you want and risk being made bubbas new main squeeze. He will educate you real fast on jailhouse guided "missile" ballistics.

 

[William Vogel]

@358WCF ... thanks for actually answering some of the questions I asked and not giving your opinion on something I said I have already come to a conclusion on.

Factory self defense ammo typically is too hot, and risks going through the target and endangering innocent bystanders so I would like to minimize that danger and avoid that accusation in court. I'd like to avoid having to explain in court why I chose a factory round te
widely known to over penetrate that endangers innocent bystanders

I think the best self defense loading would be towards accuracy and not velocity. You would also want the bullet to perform with correct expansion/wound channel performance. The best self defense round is going to be the one that goes exactly where you intended it to go. The biggest issue I have with 9mm ammunition is that it’s transonic and traveling in the range of speed that produces the most drag. I would prefer either a heavy enough bullet that was subsonic or a light enough bullet that would be well supersonic at every distance I could ever use it. This is more of the key to accuracy and bullet stability. I really found this out with rimfire 22lr. A transonic bullet becomes very inconsistent. I carry with a 9mm 90 grain that goes 1450 fps. It has more energy than most anything else 9mm.

 

[William Vogel]

I love to play with GRT. I've never plugged in my pistol loads, that said I'll echo using a faster powder like titegroup or similar. After reading this thread i ran my pistol loads and feel a change in powder is needed. Untill 10 min ago i was running CFE pistol but that powder doesn't burn well in 45 with 3.5" barrel length. 75% powder burn = large fireball and inconsisten burn rate. VV n300 looks like it burns well in a 3.5" barrel.

I bought the CFE pistol because that's what i could get at the time. Guess it'll be getting used as fertilizer now.

Just be careful about choosing a pistol powder that gets 100% burnout. I applied the strategy I use with rifle powder to my pistols and ended up with huge pressure signs occurring without the expected velocity. I had to sacrifice some efficiency of unburned powder for what I’d call reduced pressure spikes. Running published reloading data in GRT will help you with your reloading. My pistols have different barrel lengths than anything in the reloading manuals and therefore I can’t accept the recipes. I just adjust my loads after analyzing their recipes in the software.

 

[GetReal]

You are grossly naive if you think a lawyer or judge is going to allow you to testify on ballistics of a round as you are not trained and certified in ballistics!!

I can't speak for others but calling ppl grossly naive with an exclamation point and then throwing profanity in and referencing anal prison sex is a real good way for me to either ignore you or block you. Yours mimic the actions of a child who pouts and screams so that he will be heard.

Show people respect or get off my thread. Continue with your behavior and I will make that happen for you.

Understood ?

 

[Chestnut]

Just be careful about choosing a pistol powder that gets 100% burnout. I applied the strategy I use with rifle powder to my pistols and ended up with huge pressure signs occurring without the expected velocity. I had to sacrifice some efficiency of unburned powder for what I’d call reduced pressure spikes. Running published reloading data in GRT will help you with your reloading. My pistols have different barrel lengths than anything in the reloading manuals and therefore I can’t accept the recipes. I just adjust my loads after analyzing their recipes in the software.

I should have specified i only use published data and respect max loads. Your correction to my comment is 100% correct.

I'm not as worried about ultimate velocity with a pistol as much as with a rifle. So i loose 50 fps, that's just not a big deal to me. I usually run below max load as well.

 

[Webster]

If you empty your gun, how are they going to know you shot reloads?

If anyone is in immediate threat I would think the bad guy is not more than 10-20 feet away. Accuracy doesn't matter. If they have a gun and you have one your in real trouble. People watch to may TV westerns. When you shoot someone they don't die instantly. They only need to stand a couple seconds to get a shot off. The worst thing you can do is to shoot 1 shot and wait to see the result. The FBI teaches to shoot 2 quick shots and keep shooting till they go down. Many times soldiers are shot in combat and they don't even know they were hit.

 

[charlie b]

Before I choose I go to the Luckygunner website and look at his tests. Probably one of the most comprehensive ones out there. Pick a bullet that performs well in the factory ammo. Low flash is a combination of powder and good burn. IIRC the ball powders did better at this. Some powder mfgs have some advertised as 'low flash'.

Father-in-law and I did a lot of HP testing with a short barrel .45acp back in the 80's. Only one worked reliably at that low velocity. Win Silvertips. Most either didn't expand at all or they got clogged up with the denim layers in from of the expansion medium. Bullets have changed a lot over the years with all the independent testing going on.

My current choice are the Hornady Critical Duty or Critical Defense. The plastic tips prevent clogging, which is the most common failure point with HP bullets at lower velocities. Most others do well with water jugs, but, put two layers of denim and a layer of wool blanket in front and they become round nose bullets. Hornady HydraShok are especially bad at that.

 

[William Vogel]

If anyone is in immediate threat I would think the bad guy is not more than 10-20 feet away. Accuracy doesn't matter. If they have a gun and you have one your in real trouble. People watch to may TV westerns. When you shoot someone they don't die instantly. They only need to stand a couple seconds to get a shot off. The worst thing you can do is to shoot 1 shot and wait to see the result. The FBI teaches to shoot 2 quick shots and keep shooting till they go down. Many times soldiers are shot in combat and they don't even know they were hit.

Soldiers are shot with NATO ammunition which is full metal jackets and it’s more of a puncture wound with some wound channel but it’s designed to wound in body shots. I agree that death isn’t instantaneous in body shots but a head shot is pretty disabling, quickly.

 

[joshb]

If anyone is in immediate threat I would think the bad guy is not more than 10-20 feet away. Accuracy doesn't matter. If they have a gun and you have one your in real trouble. People watch to may TV westerns. When you shoot someone they don't die instantly. They only need to stand a couple seconds to get a shot off. The worst thing you can do is to shoot 1 shot and wait to see the result. The FBI teaches to shoot 2 quick shots and keep shooting till they go down. Many times soldiers are shot in combat and they don't even know they were hit.

Shoot your target into the ground. Multiple targets? Go for double taps, starting with the greatest threat and pray.

 

[ev780]

When I developed my 45ACP self defense loads I gave up all that penetration and expansion stuff. I watched a hundred videos and read thousands of pages of text, I found nothing consistent or definitive one way or the other. I finally decided to pick quality components, load for accuracy and functionality somewhere in the norm of velocities! Then I just trust the bullet designer and fate to do their jobs. I have tweaked and validated each year as I shot and refreshed my carry ammo. The gun runs and is accurate, that's all I can do.

There are too many variables to account for once a bullet leaves the barrel and interacts with live tissue. Without double blinded trials we only get anecdotes and analogues! However, we could start with congress as test subjects...... but, I doubt any of them would sign a waiver and getting IRB approval would be challenging. I digress.

So we SWAG it based on what we have and hope we never get a field trial.

And I 100% agree! Any potential liability from reloading self defense ammo is so unlikely as to be pure........

And don't get me started on Ayboob's opinion!

EV

 

[Aaron23]

If anyone is in immediate threat I would think the bad guy is not more than 10-20 feet away. Accuracy doesn't matter. If they have a gun and you have one your in real trouble. People watch to may TV westerns. When you shoot someone they don't die instantly. They only need to stand a couple seconds to get a shot off. The worst thing you can do is to shoot 1 shot and wait to see the result. The FBI teaches to shoot 2 quick shots and keep shooting till they go down. Many times soldiers are shot in combat and they don't even know they were hit.

Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting 5 times just to be certain...

 

[Steve Donlon]

So lemme AGAIN ask what Im wanting to know :

So..... questions : . Does this affect your choice and quantity of powder in the powder charge? What velocity for what grain weight projectile do you try to reload for ? Or do you just want a bullet going as fast as possible? Is 22 inches of ballistic gelatin a reasonable facsimile of the circumstance of a self-defense shooting? What if anything else do you do to be as safe and responsible as possible in loading yourself defense rounds?

Yes it does. You need to match the powder to the velocity you want to shoot and the bullet weight for the best accuracy in each weight. I use WSF powder for the 185gr. bullets because it is more accurate with that bullet I use and has more velocity than a faster powder I use for targets. And N340 with the 230 grain bullet at a slower velocity and heavier bullet works best. If I was going to shoot that bullet at an even slower velocity I would use a faster powder like WST. If I was going to shoot a 230 gr. bullet faster, I use WSF, because for me it can be faster and more accurate than N340. But some powders are more versatile. You have to figure it out for what you are shooting and what works for you. With a 9mm it depends on the pistol. Some shoot 124's best and some shoot 147's best, at least the ones I own. I have a Sig P225 that shoots 147's much better than any other weight, so that's the one I use for my carry load. In a 9mm, accuracy matters more to me. Other 9's I have shoot 124's best, so those are the ones I shoot.

 

[Gman]

You are grossly naive if you think a lawyer or judge is going to allow you to testify on ballistics of a round as you are not trained and certified in ballistics!! Reloading maybe, ballistics and terminal effects, no way in hell. Ballistics testing today can easily determine what powder, what bullets, brand primers are left in the case vs the what the mftr actually used etc. They will easily determine you used handloads and rip you a new one on the stand. Practice with a handload that mirrors the real self-defense load. No need to make their job easier for them but free to do what you want and risk being made bubbas new main squeeze. He will educate you real fast on jailhouse guided "missile" ballistics.

Agree 100%