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Reloading Ladder Test Perfection?

  • Thread starter Thread starter ducks-and-bucks
  • Start date Start date

ducks-and-bucks

I wanted to post on this subject just to make sure I have my thinking right and am doing it right.... 6.5 Grendel, Reloader 15, AMAX 123 boat tail, lapua brass, federal match primers.

I loaded ten different charges of two rounds... example: two@ 27, two@27.3, two @27.6.... etc etc etc. They are in three grain increments.. All the exact same except for the powder charge.

I will then use a large say foam board about the size of a poster board, run a vertical line down the center, then a few horizontal lines across the board spaced the same length apart. I'm going to stick a small orange sticker target on the vertical line about 3/4 way up the poster board...

AT WHAT RANGE IS OPTIMUM TO SHOOT A LADDER TEST????

I then snipe at the given range at the orange sicker target only and let the shots fall where they may...

DO I USE TWO IDENTICAL TARGET POSTER BOARD SET UPS AND SHOOT ONE ROUND OF EACH TEN I HAVE LOADED AT EACH TARGET TO GET TWO POA / POI REFERENCES???? OR LOAD MORE AND SHOOT 3 SHOT GROUPS AT EACH TARGET????

At the conclusion of the testing I should be able to see clearly a given powder charge range where it gets closest to the accuracy node my barrel likes... not saying they will be closet to the POA, but we will be looking at the tightest POI... correct??

SCHOOL ME, PREFECT MY THINKING / TEST HERE...

Thank you in advance! - (CAP TYPING IS QUESTIONS I NEED AN ANSWER TOO....)
 
ducks-and-bucks said:
....AT WHAT RANGE IS OPTIMUM TO SHOOT A LADDER TEST????...

Only you can tell, however one view might be that the optimum range is the maximum range that you ever intend to shoot at?

When I attempted some ladder tests, I shot five shots at a time at a series of target dots running horizontally across a large target board. One shot per dot, I then advanced and marked up each bullet hole. I then repeated the process until I had shot my ladder.

A better option that I am contemplating is to use an electronic target and fire every shot at the same aiming point. Then download the actual impact points after the session is over and plot the ladder in Excel.

0.3 gr is a large jump for your small cases. I would go up .1 gr at a time. You may miss a node.

Good luck. JCS
 
You have it right. One shot per load. As for distance, 300 yards or more is better.
 
"DO I USE TWO IDENTICAL TARGET POSTER BOARD SET UPS AND SHOOT ONE ROUND OF EACH TEN I HAVE LOADED AT EACH TARGET TO GET TWO POA / POI REFERENCES???? OR LOAD MORE AND SHOOT 3 SHOT GROUPS AT EACH TARGET????

I prefer to load a minimum of three rounds for my ladders tests. When I'm working with an entirely unknown load range I start at 200 yards and limit my targets to no more than five test loads, same POA for each. From that initial data I load a new set, using the best of the 200 yard data, and run another test at 300, sometimes with three rounds of each load, sometimes five of each. I continue to fine tune the load at 300 before returning to 100 to group proof the load I select, then run it back to 200 - 300 to see if I'm really as good a shot as I sometimes think I am. ;)
 
I tried a ladder test on the first flat top upper i had I loaded 12 shots .3 grains apart from the bottom of the load manual to the top load the whole group was about 1/2" at one hundred yards nice round group I'd say do it at 300 yards or farther if you can.
Darrell
 
Very nice pics, Donovan. I wish it worked out that smoothly for me. For whatever reason, I rarely get results that... definitive and easily read. More often than not, when I go back to investigate what looked like a sweet spot or node, I find... nothing but wasted powder and bullets.
 
Thanks. I gained an idea from this.

Most always I have trouble marking (color coding) bullets so I really know what is hitting the target. At my range it's a real pain to wait for "cold" and ride say 500 yards to check the targets. Even with Nightforce the impacts can be hard to see but the idea is a series of aiming points along a horizontal line.

Say I took a target about 2 ft. across and put up say 8 different aiming points. Then I could shoot 8 different loads in succession just changing the aim point and hopefully still see the pattern easily. Then you could shoot maybe 3 shots at each point to also get a better idea of how each load groups at the elevation it hits.

MMMMMMMMMMMMM
 
The trick with the Sharpie (see Jason Baney's article on ladder testing) works quite well, but with more than a half-dozen loads it starts getting a little awkward - there are only so many colors that give good definition even on white paper when rubbing off a bullet as it passes through, and I've never had good luck with doing the two-tone thing in my tests.

Another option, if you have a cam-corder of some sort around the house (and the wife trusts you to take it to the range and *not* shoot it...) is to set it up on a tripod near the target, start recording, drive back to the firing point, do your shooting, wait for the next available cease-fire, drive down and pick up the camera and your target. Most cam-corders in recent times have some sort of view screen, so you can fast forward through the dead part to where the shots start coming in, and use the video to tell which shot was which on the target and mark them as such. Think of it as a poor man's version of the target cam systems you see on the market... ;)
 
I have became a big fan of the ILDM (ladder test). I do basically the sample method as described by others. I learned by trying the method at various ranges (100, 200, 300, 400 yds) that if I didn't shoot at least 300 yds I got unreproducible results.

It is critical to know which bullet (charge) goes with which hole. I can see 6mm bullets with no problems at 300 yards even with cheap Nikon Earth and Sky 15-45x spotter. But 20 and 22 cal holes are a different story, especially in the mirage conditions. I solved this by get an old 8mm cam corder and placing it near the target and turning it on record. I had one that hadn't been used in years. I just collect my targets, go home and plug the camcorder in the TV and watch. I also have a single wind flag in view of the camcorder right beside the target. I have learned a fair amount by watching that wind flag and comparing to the bullet strike after the fact.

This is a post I put up some time ago on the topic.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3205403.msg30935851#msg30935851

I see the exact type of pattern mention by Donovan. In the last post of this thread, I tried to correct for the changes in muzzle velocity and used published B.C. to correct for bullet drop with the different velocities observed with each charge. I was hoping to see the sine wave pattern that Von described in his book. Not such luck.

Still, I don't know how you can more quickly tune a rifle in 10 shots.

Luck,

Tim
 
Tried coloring the bullets. Not easy to read at times.

Another issue is one of accuracy. Adding the color to the bullets probably does not affect how that bullet flies but it could. The whole thing made me uneasy and when I had trouble reading many of the hits, the color solution went from solution to problem.

Now that horizontal line with various targets and/or the camcorder idea both might be "the bomb".
 
This is what I tried. I fired five shots moving from left to right, advanced and marked up the target and shot again. Regards JCS
 

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I had an older camcorder sitting around unused at the house and a tripod, bought a transmitter/receiver set, bought two UPS's from Best Buy when they were on sale and purchased a 12-inch or so flat screen TV from HH Gregg, and I have a video setup so that I can watch my bullet strikes from 520 yards which is the longest distance available to me on a daily basis. They batteries last around four hours continuous use.

Camera - no cost
tripod - no cost
trans/recr - $125
two UPS's - $160
flat screen TV - $75
 
I can understand the use of a chrony if you are 100% certain that the results from it are reliable and repeatable. But for me its another thing that can cause error (I only own an F1 and havent played with it for repeatability yet). Why should a load that has awesome SD still group well between shorter and longer range? For sure at 1000yds you will take good SD into account for being helpful to consistency. But for a 300yd ladder test could you not look at what load has less vertical spread and re test at further ranges?

Im going down a different path in that I will do my ladder testing based on vertical spreads across all ranges. I have access to 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800 and 900m ranges. Planning to shoot 5 shots of one charge at a target at 500m. Will draw a reference line through the middle of the aiming point on the target so I can measure the vertical of each shot. Then will do the same for a number of other charges. Once recorded I can measure the spread for each charge and get a SD of vertical for each charge. Those that show less vertical could indicate a promising load and can be confirmed with 15 or 20 shot groups at say 300, 500, 700 and 900m

Of course what holds great vertical spread from 300 to say 700 might not be any good at 900- thats where you need to look at what the target is telling you in vertical spread. Possibly another load will need to be developed for 700, 800 and 900m shooting as the short to mid range load wont perform as well at the long range.

I just see this as a safer option than doing a ladder test at 300 checking velocity at the same time and using what ever has the best SD in velocity. Last year I won the Queens Prize shoot F Class Open division here in Western Australia and one of the shooters in my division was wondering why his load wasnt performing. He said he had a really good velocity SD. Me, I just put a load together that held very good vertical spread and it worked out alot better.

I know its probably more shots down a barrel, but when they last for a few thousand rounds your not using up much of the life of the barrel in my opinion. And if you do encounter vertical at long range you have to go down the path of load tuning again anyway. The only downfall I see with this method is the conditions you shoot in. You would have to study the condition and shoot those 5 shots off quickly to make sure nothing changes. Or shoot on a really good day. But this is similar to a standard ladder test anyway- get a gust of headwind and one shot that could be in the middle of a node gets blown down to 6 oclock and you start guessing again.

Would appreciate thoughts and opinions.
 

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