Reloading 44 Mag/44 Special

[Ernest T]

To keep it simple, I'd like to use the same bullet and powder for both 44 cartridges. Since I already use CFE Pistol for 9 mm and 45 ACP, I looked at loads for the 44 using that powder and 220 grain copper plated bullets.

I found one load for the 44 Mag starting at 8.5 grains of CFE Pistol and topping out at 10.9 grains. I was unable to find a load for that bullet and powder for the 44 special.

There are CFE Pistol loads in 44 Special for lighter bullets, both lead and jacketed, and heavier lead bullets. This is what they look like.

44 Special
240 grain lead bullet
CFE Pistol 5.6 grains

44 Special
200 grain lead bullet
CFE Pistol 6.3 grains

44 Special
200 grain jacketed bullet
CFE Pistol 6.3 Grains

44 Special
165 grain lead bullet
CFE Pistol 7.4 grains

Can I safely extrapolate this data to determine a starting point for a 44 Special load with CFE Pistol? Just doing the math, it looks like that load would be somewhere around 6.0 grains of CFE Pistol, but to err on the side of caution, I'm thinking 5.8 grains would be a good start.

44 Special
220 grain copper plate
Proposed CFE Pistol 5.8-6.8 grains

 

[Charliemac]

Yes, I think you'll be okay. Are you shooting them a 44 Spl gun or mag?

 

[DHD]

What revolver are we talking about here? If you have say a 44 Special Ruger NM Blackhawk Flattop, you can push it pretty darn hard. If you are firing the 44 Special out of a 44 Mag revolver, you can also push it hard. CFE Pistol is slower than my favorite 44 Special powder (HS-6) and I run my preferred load harder than what you are listing with a heavier cast bullet. However, my 2 44 Specials are a NM Blackhawk Flattop Bisley and a 624.

Point is, with a good revolver your 5.8 grains of CFE Pistol and a 240ish grain bullet, you'll be fine. If you shoot some and the cases are sooty, it's not enough. I had to push the HS-6 harder until the cases were relatively clean after extraction. 99.9% of my revolver shooting is using either Blackhawk's or Freedom Arms 83's so I have a lot of wiggle room. The fun ends before I could get into trouble so there isn't much point in seeing how far I could go.

A not written in stone load technique I use for my revolvers was to continue adding powder 1/2 grain at a time until I have good accuracy and relatively clean cases. Sooty cases and/or not so good accuracy I continued going up. I don't use any thing faster than the HS-6 range so that 1/2 grain never got me into trouble. Many times I could not find any data for the powder and bullet weight range I planned to use and I had to do it the "work up a load" way.

 

[Ernest T]

Yes, I think you'll be okay. Are you shooting them a 44 Spl gun or mag?

Its in a S&W Model 29 44 Mag.

 

[spudgun]

Been using a Elmer Keith's favorite .44 Mag load since the 70's.

21.0 Gr, 2400, 240 Gr bullet.

 

[Ernest T]

What revolver are we talking about here? If you have say a 44 Special Ruger NM Blackhawk Flattop, you can push it pretty darn hard. If you are firing the 44 Special out of a 44 Mag revolver, you can also push it hard. CFE Pistol is slower than my favorite 44 Special powder (HS-6) and I run my preferred load harder than what you are listing with a heavier cast bullet. However, my 2 44 Specials are a NM Blackhawk Flattop Bisley and a 624.

Point is, with a good revolver your 5.8 grains of CFE Pistol and a 240ish grain bullet, you'll be fine. If you shoot some and the cases are sooty, it's not enough. I had to push the HS-6 harder until the cases were relatively clean after extraction. 99.9% of my revolver shooting is using either Blackhawk's or Freedom Arms 83's so I have a lot of wiggle room. The fun ends before I could get into trouble so there isn't much point in seeing how far I could go.

A not written in stone load technique I use for my revolvers was to continue adding powder 1/2 grain at a time until I have good accuracy and relatively clean cases. Sooty cases and/or not so good accuracy I continued going up. I don't use any thing faster than the HS-6 range so that 1/2 grain never got me into trouble. Many times I could not find any data for the powder and bullet weight range I planned to use and I had to do it the "work up a load" way.

Its a S&W model 29 44 mag. Thank you for the advice. I will start with 5.8 grains and work upwards watching for pressure signs or sooty cases.

 

[DHD]

No doubt the 29 won't care. The only thing you have to concern yourself with is how accurate the combination is. What I consider a medium level load (900ish fps 240 grain 44 Special load) has tended to shoot well in my 44 Specials. For me, I never tried a light load as the one mentioned above have always shot so well and these are very easy to handle.

Using HS-6, I load 8.5 grains with a powder coated 255 grain LFN (long flat nose) style cast bullet. Relatively mild load and clean. I've loaded to 10 grains and keep some of those as a back up if I'm hunting in case a deer gets close. You, using the CFE, may find the 5.8 grain starting load is too light. You can look for pressure signs but I doubt you'll see any before you see good accuracy and clean cases.

Not trying to tell you what to do but with the bullets you have available, I'd start with the 240 grain bullets. I usually find in the 44/45 calibers a heavier not too hard cast bullet that fits the throats using a softer lube will shoot better than a light weight bullet. If you see a leaded barrel, it is rarely because it is a hot load, it is more than likely a too hard bullet that is undersized for the throat and/or an improper lube (think hard waxy lube that many commercial casters use). Not trying to get you too deep in the weeds but just mentioning it because many consider a leaded barrel when shooting cast bullets to be a hot load and it rarely is.

IMHO, shooting cast bullets is enjoyable because it is a process and I'm probably nuts. It's a process because there is the casting (lead hardness), lubing (90% powder coat in my case but I will use a lube-sizer and a softer lube occasionally), sizing to throats (very important for best accuracy), loading, and finally shooting. With a jacketed bullet you can just load and shoot but where is the fun in that. Yep, I'm probably nuts....

Again, the 29 won't care about your planned starting loads, you should enjoy it, and sorry for the long post (too much coffee I guess).

 

[Ernest T]

No doubt the 29 won't care. The only thing you have to concern yourself with is how accurate the combination is. What I consider a medium level load (900ish fps 240 grain 44 Special load) has tended to shoot well in my 44 Specials. For me, I never tried a light load as the one mentioned above have always shot so well and these are very easy to handle.

Using HS-6, I load 8.5 grains with a powder coated 255 grain LFN (long flat nose) style cast bullet. Relatively mild load and clean. I've loaded to 10 grains and keep some of those as a back up if I'm hunting in case a deer gets close. You, using the CFE, may find the 5.8 grain starting load is too light. You can look for pressure signs but I doubt you'll see any before you see good accuracy and clean cases.

Not trying to tell you what to do but with the bullets you have available, I'd start with the 240 grain bullets. I usually find in the 44/45 calibers a heavier not too hard cast bullet that fits the throats using a softer lube will shoot better than a light weight bullet. If you see a leaded barrel, it is rarely because it is a hot load, it is more than likely a too hard bullet that is undersized for the throat and/or an improper lube (think hard waxy lube that many commercial casters use). Not trying to get you too deep in the weeds but just mentioning it because many consider a leaded barrel when shooting cast bullets to be a hot load and it rarely is.

IMHO, shooting cast bullets is enjoyable because it is a process and I'm probably nuts. It's a process because there is the casting (lead hardness), lubing (90% powder coat in my case but I will use a lube-sizer and a softer lube occasionally), sizing to throats (very important for best accuracy), loading, and finally shooting. With a jacketed bullet you can just load and shoot but where is the fun in that. Yep, I'm probably nuts....

Again, the 29 won't care about your planned starting loads, you should enjoy it, and sorry for the long post (too much coffee I guess).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I've not done any bullet casting and don't know if I want to go down that path.

 

[H2OBUG]

I load 2400 for both the 44 mag and 44 spl. Full house 44 mags for my CVA rifle I use 296.
The reason I use the 2400 is allow for a bit of a reduced load.
You also may want to consider position sensitivity for that small of a charge of CFE in that big case. Just a thought.

 

[DHD]

I load 2400 for both the 44 mag and 44 spl. Full house 44 mags for my CVA rifle I use 296.
The reason I use the 2400 is allow for a bit of a reduced load.
You also may want to consider position sensitivity for that small of a charge of CFE in that big case. Just a thought.

Even though I have about a half dozen 44 calibers, I've never used a grain of 2400. I have and keep at least a keg of H110 on hand but no 2400. When I wanted some it was hen's teeth so got AA9 instead. I do know of it's property of being able to download but so can AA9. There is no more of a classic 44 Specal/Magnum powder than 2400.

 

[Ernest T]

I asked a question about COAL.

On edit:

Never mind, I found the data in the Lee paperwork supplied with the dies. I was so focused on the powder load I didn't realize the chart contained other data too.

 

[Ernest T]

I load 9 mm and 45 ACP and the maximum COAL for both rounds is very close to the recommended COAL for different weight and profile bullets. Why is that not true for the 44 Special/Magnum? The maximum COAL is much longer than the recommended COAL for the different weight and profile bullets I've looked at -- 1.614 max vs 1.460 or so.

 

[fkimble@charter.net]

Different cast bullets have different nose shapes and lengths. Most cast bullets are seated to the crimping groove. Sometimes this will produce a loaded round too long for the cylinder. In this case you just seat short enough to fit. Same weight cast bullets with different noses will have different amounts of bullet in the case affecting case capacity. Deeper seated bullets will raise pressure so a little less power is needed. As always start low and work up.

Frank

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

My brother has a Desert eagle 44 mag, he has no rds for it, so I'm adding it to my reloading program. So far I have a RCBS carbide 3 die set, H110 and 240gr xtp. Win primers and fired brass and a bag of new PPU. A Lyman pistol block ammo checker is due in today. With the win brass it looks like the Hornady 240 xtp at the recommended 1.60 coal will seat right in the middle of the cannelure.

 

[Ernest T]

My brother has a Desert eagle 44 mag, he has no rds for it, so I'm adding it to my reloading program. So far I have a RCBS carbide 3 die set, H110 and 240gr xtp. Win primers and fired brass and a bag of new PPU. A Lyman pistol block ammo checker is due in today. With the win brass it looks like the Hornady 240 xtp at the recommended 1.60 coal will seat right in the middle of the cannelure.

I'm loading 220 grain copper plated bullets. This is what they look like at max COAL.

This is a comparison to a factory round. That factory round is 1.462" and the recommended length for my plated bullets is 1.460. I've just not experienced that big a difference between max coal and recommended length for a given bullet.

This is a dummy round at 1.460 COAL.

Its more curiosity than anything else.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

I would load the plated bullets seated to the manufacturer suggested coal. Approximately 1.610 for the mag and 1.460 for the special. You could email the manufacturer and confirm their data.

 

[Ernest T]

This is the chronograph result from the first batch using the Lee data for Autocomp powder with a 220 gr flat nose Berry's Bullet. Their data says 7.3 gr of powder is the max load. My Model 29 has a 4" barrel . I only shot a few rounds because I forgot the screw mount for the tripod and had to bungee cord the chronograph to the tripod. It wasn't a real secure setup so I fired six rounds of each load and called it good. Extreme spread numbers were higher than I'd like, but the SD numbers were good.

I'm going to run loads for CFE Pistol, Tight Group and HP-38 just to see how they perform. The load charts for HP-38 call for much more powder than for CFE and Autocomp and give higher velocities.

Powder	648 FPS	675 FPS	712 FPS	743 FPS
Autocomp	6.4	6.7	7.0	7.3

 

[Ernest T]

I shot two rounds from each group of six and measured the remaining unfired rounds and it doesn't appear that any moved from recoil. I didn't make sure each cartridge was exactly the same length, but they all were 1.463 + or - .001 before and after firing.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Might as well be shooting a 38s at those velocities, or a 45 acp.

 

[Ernest T]

Might as well be shooting a 38s at those velocities, or a 45 acp.

According to the data, those velocities are right in the ball park for Autocomp. The load data that comes with the Lee dies is pretty conservative. I ought to exceed 800 fps with other powders using the Hornady book data.