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RELOADING 243 AND GETTING LOW SD AND ES

Savageseven

Gold $$ Contributor
HI GUYS IM RELOADING 243 WINCHESTER USING LAPUA BRASS AND FEDERAL GOLD MATCH PRIMERS GM 210M
AND IMR 4064 POWDER AND SHOOTING A 70 GRAIN NOSLER BALLISTIC TIP. IM USING A RCBS CHARGE MASTER 1500 THATS BEEN CALIBRATED
I LOADED UP SOME TEST LOADS IN 5 SHOT GROUPS
FROM 38.5 GRAINS OF 4064
TO 43.5 GRAINS OF 4064 IN .5 GRAIN INCREMENTS MY LOWEST SD WAS 16. TO ME THIS SEEMS HIGH
I SHOOT 6MM BR WITH 30 GRAINS OF VARGET AND GET 2.5 SD SO I KNOW MY MAGNETOSPEED CHRONOGRAPH IS WORKING CORRECTLY. MY QUESTION IS IF I GO MORE THEN 43.5 GRAINS OF 4064 WILL MY SD GET SMALLER OR INCREASE ?
 
I shot 39.0g of IMR 4064 with a fed 210 for years, accuracy was a bullet hole opened up using custom barrels and reamer with zero freebore. Since you are not talking about a long range affair, forget the SD, just go and kill stuff.
 
Using all-caps looks as if you're shouting and is not as easy to read as the normal mix of caps and lower-case letters.
 
I shot 39.0g of IMR 4064 with a fed 210 for years, accuracy was a bullet hole opened up using custom barrels and reamer with zero freebore. Since you are not talking about a long range affair, forget the SD, just go and kill stuff.
my groups are 5 shots inside a penny at 100 yards. i havent moved it out further yet. was just thinking to myself if i wanna shoot coyots at 400 and 500 yards a lower SD and ES Would sure help
 
70g Noslers groups start falling apart between 400-500 at the velocity you are talking about with IMR 4064 in std. 243 Win. You will still be minute of Rock Chuck. The 87g Vmax with a warm load of R#19 or IMR 4831, WLR primer will get you 3350 in a 26" barrel, which will carry the freight at 600.
 
70g Noslers groups start falling apart between 400-500 at the velocity you are talking about with IMR 4064 in std. 243 Win. You will still be minute of Rock Chuck. The 87g Vmax with a warm load of R#19 or IMR 4831, WLR primer will get you 3350 in a 26" barrel, which will carry the freight at 600.
when you say 70g noslers start falling apart between 400-500 what do you mean ?
 
Been shooting the 243 Win since the late 60's. That doesn't make me an expert by any means but I have a lot of experience with this caliber. By the way, I love this caliber - it was my first center fire rifle caliber and I hunted everything with it from varmints - foxes - and deer. It never failed me.

IMR 4064 is an outstanding powder for the 70 grain bullet weight. The 70 Nosler is a good bullet but there are better ones in my opinion. More on that later. Federal 210M primers are also excellent although I've had the same success with the standard large rifle Federal primers, i.e. 210.

Two bullets which I have found the perform exceptionally well in the 243 are the 80 grain Sierra Blitz (varmints only) and my favorite, the 85 grain Sierra BTHP, the latter an all purpose bullet for the 243 meaning capable of varmints / predators and with proper shot placement, deer.

You may find that IMR 4350 works better with the 85 BTHP but IMR 4064 is certainly suitable. I got very similar results between IMR 4064 and Varget.

I don't measure or pay attention to SD, perhaps that's wrong but I let the target dictate the best load.
 
when you say 70g noslers start falling apart between 400-500 what do you mean ?
trajectory starts taking a nose dive, groups open up due to a loss in velocity. I killed a few coyotes at 450 over a dead cow down in Mexico with the 39g of IMR 4064 load and ballistic tips.
 
What is your ES?
Look at the velocities for each shot. Are they mostly within 15 fps with a couple outliers? Outliers could be funky reloading, maybe inconsistent neck tension.

Mark outlier brass — set that aside and inspect it carefully.

Experiment with seating depths.

Big Q — is this a factory barrel?
 
Last edited:
What is your ES?
Look at the velocities for each shot. Are they mostly within 15 fps with a couple outliers? Outliers could be funky reloading, maybe inconsistent neck tension.

Mark outlier brass — set that aside and inspect it carefully.

Experiment with seating depths.

Bit Q — is this a factory barrel?
Yes factory savage heavy Varmint barrel. ES was 39. Seating was .020 off jam
 
2 observations if I may.
The SD's you see could be a result of Chargemaster load variability. Maybe pop loads onto a beam scale to get a better weight match.
70 grainers at the distance you want to use them to doesn't seem an optimum solution.

Have you run some different weights through a ballistics program to examine remaining energy, drop and wind sensitivity at those ranges ?
 
The answer is that until you isolate the specific variable(s) causing the higher-than-expected ES/SD, you won't really know how to lower them. There can be quite a number of reasons you might observe that kind of velocity variance, which I would call excessive, but not necessarily "severe". That list might include but not be limited to (ranging from most to least likely): neck tension (interference fit) variance, excessive or too light neck tension, sub-optimal primer choice for that particular load, charge weight variance.

I'd start by making sure you anneal every firing, and being certain your re-sizing step is producing consistent neck tension, as well as the proper amount of neck tension. That means measuring the diameter of case necks just below the mouth before and after bullet seating. You want to see a difference (interference fit) between the two measurements of somewhere in the neighborhood of .002", which typically means above ~.001" and below ~.003". You can easily test what your rifle prefers and how it affects ES/SD by using bushings to size a few cases each that give you very close to .001", .002", and .003" neck tension. If your neck tension is below .001" or greater than .005", you might see an improvement by bring it closer to around .002", although this number is not written in stone. The second aspect of neck tension is that you want it to be uniform, regardless of the actual value. That may mean using a specific diameter mandrel to open up the necks to the desired value as the final sizing step after re-sizing cases with your sizing die. You may find it necessary to turn the necks and make the neck wall thickness more uniform.

Sometimes, switching primers and re-working the load is all it takes to see a noticeable improvement in velocity variance. If you have another type of primer you can try, or if a shooting friend does, you might load a few rounds side-by-side with the two different primers and see if one makes a noticeable difference.

As I'm sure you noticed, charge weight variance is the last of the short list I mentioned. Although some shooters striving for the utmost precision will often weigh powder to an accuracy of +/- half a kernel, that is not usually the reason for excessive ES/SD. In fact, you can easily make a rough calculation of the theoretical effect of charge weight variance by dividing the maximum charge weight variance by the total charge weight, then multiplying that number by your average velocity. For example, altering charge weight by 0.1 gr in a typical .308 Win load with a Berger 200 gr bullet over Varget will typically change the measured [actual] average velocity by somewhere between 5 and 10 fps. In my F-TR setups, 43.5 gr of a typical Lot of Varget in such a load gives almost spot on 2650 fps from a 30" barrel. So, 0.1 gr/43.5 gr = 0.0023. If I multiply 2650 fps by 0.0023, I get 6.1 fps expected velocity change for one tenth grain change in powder weight, which is well within the actual measured range. If one tenth grain of powder changes velocity by only 5 to 10 fps in a .308 Win case, then the charge weight would have to vary by as much as 0.4 gr between loaded rounds to produce an ES of 40 fps, assuming charge weight variance was the sole cause of velocity variance (which it probably isn't). In other words, charge weight variance can certainly cause velocity variance, but it would take a fair bit of charge weight variance to account for more than a few fps in terms of ES/SD. One way to test this would be to throw a few charges with your Chargemaster, then weigh them on a [separate] accurate balance to estimate how precisely your Chargemaster is actually throwing charges. I rather suspect it is not going to be off by several tenths of a grain, but again, it is easy to determine that empirically by double weighing thrown charges so you know for sure.

Excessive ES/SD can sometimes be a very challenging issue to decipher so that you can correctly identify the cause and address it. IMO the best approach is a stepwise analysis of your brass prep as outlined above, trying a different primer, and checking your powder weighing apparatus. It may seem painful, but it's not really as bad as it might seem. Annealing cases, as well as checking each case prep for proper sizing and neck tension (interference fit) is something I do with at least 10 cases from every single prep I do. That way I know what I'm working with, and it makes it much easier to troubleshoot if something is off. Once you've done that a few times, it will become the "new normal" in your case prep routine and not seem like any extra effort at all. That same is true for whatever you might need to do to address or fix any specific problems you might find are likely to be causing excessive ES/SD. Checking the accuracy of your balance from time to time is always a good idea, even if it seems to be performing flawlessly. In any event, best of luck solving it!
 
The answer is that until you isolate the specific variable(s) causing the higher-than-expected ES/SD, you won't really know how to lower them. There can be quite a number of reasons you might observe that kind of velocity variance, which I would call excessive, but not necessarily "severe". That list might include but not be limited to (ranging from most to least likely): neck tension (interference fit) variance, excessive or too light neck tension, sub-optimal primer choice for that particular load, charge weight variance.

I'd start by making sure you anneal every firing, and being certain your re-sizing step is producing consistent neck tension, as well as the proper amount of neck tension. That means measuring the diameter of case necks just below the mouth before and after bullet seating. You want to see a difference (interference fit) between the two measurements of somewhere in the neighborhood of .002", which typically means above ~.001" and below ~.003". You can easily test what your rifle prefers and how it affects ES/SD by using bushings to size a few cases each that give you very close to .001", .002", and .003" neck tension. If your neck tension is below .001" or greater than .005", you might see an improvement by bring it closer to around .002", although this number is not written in stone. The second aspect of neck tension is that you want it to be uniform, regardless of the actual value. That may mean using a specific diameter mandrel to open up the necks to the desired value as the final sizing step after re-sizing cases with your sizing die. You may find it necessary to turn the necks and make the neck wall thickness more uniform.

Sometimes, switching primers and re-working the load is all it takes to see a noticeable improvement in velocity variance. If you have another type of primer you can try, or if a shooting friend does, you might load a few rounds side-by-side with the two different primers and see if one makes a noticeable difference.

As I'm sure you noticed, charge weight variance is the last of the short list I mentioned. Although some shooters striving for the utmost precision will often weigh powder to an accuracy of +/- half a kernel, that is not usually the reason for excessive ES/SD. In fact, you can easily make a rough calculation of the theoretical effect of charge weight variance by dividing the maximum charge weight variance by the total charge weight, then multiplying that number by your average velocity. For example, altering charge weight by 0.1 gr in a typical .308 Win load with a Berger 200 gr bullet over Varget will typically change the measured [actual] average velocity by somewhere between 5 and 10 fps. In my F-TR setups, 43.5 gr of a typical Lot of Varget in such a load gives almost spot on 2650 fps from a 30" barrel. So, 0.1 gr/43.5 gr = 0.0023. If I multiply 2650 fps by 0.0023, I get 6.1 fps expected velocity change for one tenth grain change in powder weight, which is well within the actual measured range. If one tenth grain of powder changes velocity by only 5 to 10 fps in a .308 Win case, then the charge weight would have to vary by as much as 0.4 gr between loaded rounds to produce an ES of 40 fps, assuming charge weight variance was the sole cause of velocity variance (which it probably isn't). In other words, charge weight variance can certainly cause velocity variance, but it would take a fair bit of charge weight variance to account for more than a few fps in terms of ES/SD. One way to test this would be to throw a few charges with your Chargemaster, then weigh them on a [separate] accurate balance to estimate how precisely your Chargemaster is actually throwing charges. I rather suspect it is not going to be off by several tenths of a grain, but again, it is easy to determine that empirically by double weighing thrown charges so you know for sure.

Excessive ES/SD can sometimes be a very challenging issue to decipher so that you can correctly identify the cause and address it. IMO the best approach is a stepwise analysis of your brass prep as outlined above, trying a different primer, and checking your powder weighing apparatus. It may seem painful, but it's not really as bad as it might seem. Annealing cases, as well as checking each case prep for proper sizing and neck tension (interference fit) is something I do with at least 10 cases from every single prep I do. That way I know what I'm working with, and it makes it much easier to troubleshoot if something is off. Once you've done that a few times, it will become the "new normal" in your case prep routine and not seem like any extra effort at all. That same is true for whatever you might need to do to address or fix any specific problems you might find are likely to be causing excessive ES/SD. Checking the accuracy of your balance from time to time is always a good idea, even if it seems to be performing flawlessly. In any event, best of luck solving it!
wow this is alot of very very good info. ( THANKS SO MUCH ) Im using brand new lapua brass so im not sure if it makes a difference. as it hasent been fireformed to my chamber yet. The 16 SD was on the first firing of the new lot of brass. as far a neck tension goes i used a precision ground .002 mandrel and ran that through each case mouth .
 
Lapua brass is very good, but not necessarily perfect. The fact that it is virgin brass might play a role, but I have gotten decent ES/SD values out of prepped virgin Lapua brass many times, so it's hard to say. Turning the necks might make a difference. Also, if you're sizing the necks down to a slightly smaller diameter and following that up with a mandrel that is .002" under bullet diameter, you're probably running about .0025" neck tension due to spring-back of the brass. It might be worth testing mandrels that are ~.001" and/or ~.0015" under bullet diameter, if you have them. Finally, trying a different primer can sometimes make a world of difference. Sometimes experimenting with individual steps in the brass prep/reloading process, isolating each step and making some change at only that step is the only way to pin down the culprit(s). Again, best of luck with it.
 

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