refilling 1 lb propane bottles
- Thread starter hedditch
- Start date
I managed a decent sized Co-op LP plant with a branch plant for 19+ years. I watched several of those videos and will only say that they give you just enough info to be dangerous and hurt, burned severely or kill yourself or bystanders!!! We always refilled the 1# cylinders for each of our delivery trucks and service units etc. We had Bernzomatic factory made refillable cylinders with a bleeder valve and used an adaptor that allowed the 1# cylinders to hang vertical. They quit manufacturing and selling the bottles and that style of adaptor in the late 80's or early 90's for liability reasons. Think I still have at least 4, a couple new yet.
It can be done but you darn well better know what you're doing! As flammable as LP is and with the working pressures having 0 to 210# or so variables because of temperature extremes it IS NOT something for a novice with little to no experience to mess with! Static can be a killer, absolutely NO NYLON clothing or anything else that might cause a spark. Seen enough actual photos and videos over the 19 yr span of 'do it yourselfers' and how things ended. Most trying to save a buck and lost their home, life or lived with severe burns the rest of their lives!!!!!
Using vapor instead of liquid transfer to fill a small cylinder from a bigger one will take forever, as soon as pressures equalize between the 2 transfer stops so liquid transfer is the fastest. Vapor transfer and then cooling to get vapor to transfer to liquid isn't as easy as they suggest. We are very remote here and had numerous farmers/ranchers that filled their own small cylinders off a nurse tank or house tank, some would leave them set hooked together for a day or more to get them full. If you fill a 1# cylinder with vapor only to say 150PSI you might get 3-4 fittings soldered before it is empty. As pressure drops so does flame temp. Pressure fluctuates from 0 @ -40 to pop off with temps over 100 degree and relief valves set at 210# for domestic tanks and IIRC 300ish# for motor fuel tanks. Being out of it for 14yrs+ now and getting old my figures may be off a few pounds?
There is a faster way to fill the new cylinders that are not designed to be refilled than what is showed but I will not describe it on the net. Too many ways to mess up by too many people with no clue of what they are doing. Also the OPD valves had just started being used when I quit so I have no idea how they would work to transfer liquid or vapor when inverted. They have a float internally that closes a seat when liquid level reaches 80 percent which prevents over filling. Prior to that all containers used a bleeder valve only set to release liquid @ 80%. Unless your domestic house tank etc has a liquid withdrawl setup you can only pull vapor. Messing with the liquid side of LP is a whole new ball game vs vapor!!! You can loose flesh and limbs from freezing in seconds if a line should break or a fitting or valve malfunction!!
So please anyone reading this or watching some of those youtube vids, your life and health are worth much more than a $4 1# cylinder! Smokeless powder is safer to handle than liquid LP and/or LP appliances with no knowledge of either. Powder you only have to worry about a combustion source or overload, LP is flammable plus the possible pressures and explosion potential of vapor and/or liquid. A pound of powder won't lift your house off its foundation, a gallon of vaporized LP with perfect air/fuel ratio will!!!!! In the 19yrs I had several close calls, most from errors or lack of info etc from a do it yourselfer homeowner and a few of my own mistakes or miscalculations. I never repeated those I made.lol
Also wanted to mention that from all I knew/know you cannot fill a portable cylinder without a scale. Don't know how they can go by a meter, especially if cylinder IS NOT completely empty? Our state weights and measurers dept checked our meters and scales and certified them every year! A 20# cylinder holds roughly 4.7 gal of liquid LP. I have seen some pretty shoddy and primitive setups for filling cylinders but any respectable company will be weighing them as their insurance would require such.
Hope this information helps to explain the whys and wherefores.
Respectfully,
Dennis
It can be done but you darn well better know what you're doing! As flammable as LP is and with the working pressures having 0 to 210# or so variables because of temperature extremes it IS NOT something for a novice with little to no experience to mess with! Static can be a killer, absolutely NO NYLON clothing or anything else that might cause a spark. Seen enough actual photos and videos over the 19 yr span of 'do it yourselfers' and how things ended. Most trying to save a buck and lost their home, life or lived with severe burns the rest of their lives!!!!!
Using vapor instead of liquid transfer to fill a small cylinder from a bigger one will take forever, as soon as pressures equalize between the 2 transfer stops so liquid transfer is the fastest. Vapor transfer and then cooling to get vapor to transfer to liquid isn't as easy as they suggest. We are very remote here and had numerous farmers/ranchers that filled their own small cylinders off a nurse tank or house tank, some would leave them set hooked together for a day or more to get them full. If you fill a 1# cylinder with vapor only to say 150PSI you might get 3-4 fittings soldered before it is empty. As pressure drops so does flame temp. Pressure fluctuates from 0 @ -40 to pop off with temps over 100 degree and relief valves set at 210# for domestic tanks and IIRC 300ish# for motor fuel tanks. Being out of it for 14yrs+ now and getting old my figures may be off a few pounds?
There is a faster way to fill the new cylinders that are not designed to be refilled than what is showed but I will not describe it on the net. Too many ways to mess up by too many people with no clue of what they are doing. Also the OPD valves had just started being used when I quit so I have no idea how they would work to transfer liquid or vapor when inverted. They have a float internally that closes a seat when liquid level reaches 80 percent which prevents over filling. Prior to that all containers used a bleeder valve only set to release liquid @ 80%. Unless your domestic house tank etc has a liquid withdrawl setup you can only pull vapor. Messing with the liquid side of LP is a whole new ball game vs vapor!!! You can loose flesh and limbs from freezing in seconds if a line should break or a fitting or valve malfunction!!
So please anyone reading this or watching some of those youtube vids, your life and health are worth much more than a $4 1# cylinder! Smokeless powder is safer to handle than liquid LP and/or LP appliances with no knowledge of either. Powder you only have to worry about a combustion source or overload, LP is flammable plus the possible pressures and explosion potential of vapor and/or liquid. A pound of powder won't lift your house off its foundation, a gallon of vaporized LP with perfect air/fuel ratio will!!!!! In the 19yrs I had several close calls, most from errors or lack of info etc from a do it yourselfer homeowner and a few of my own mistakes or miscalculations. I never repeated those I made.lol
Also wanted to mention that from all I knew/know you cannot fill a portable cylinder without a scale. Don't know how they can go by a meter, especially if cylinder IS NOT completely empty? Our state weights and measurers dept checked our meters and scales and certified them every year! A 20# cylinder holds roughly 4.7 gal of liquid LP. I have seen some pretty shoddy and primitive setups for filling cylinders but any respectable company will be weighing them as their insurance would require such.
Hope this information helps to explain the whys and wherefores.
Respectfully,
Dennis
It must be really, really bad stuff. Red Green has never done it.
If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.
If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.
Dennis,
That is the kind of reply I enjoy most. Not just some guy I don't even know saying don't do it, but rather the whys and consequences if you do. I'm a cheap skate in every sense of the word, but I'm not going to blow and arm off to save a few $$$. Thanks for a detailed explanation.
Lloyd
That is the kind of reply I enjoy most. Not just some guy I don't even know saying don't do it, but rather the whys and consequences if you do. I'm a cheap skate in every sense of the word, but I'm not going to blow and arm off to save a few $$$. Thanks for a detailed explanation.
Lloyd
I refilled the 1 pounders for years. The only problem I ever had was a bottle that vented from sitting in the sun. Would a new bottle have the same thing? Probably.
I went and dug out from my accumulated stash from my working days, perhaps these pics will help explain what I am talking about with the older cylinders that were designed to be refilled vs. the disposable available today. For the sake of safety if you have any questions please ask, via PM if you don't feel comfortable posting them publicly. As stated I had to quit work 14yrs ago with complications transpired from heart valve surgery so I am posting info that was pertinent at that time. If there are things different it would only be more restrictive laws/regs, not less! The left 2 cylinders 'disposable' and ARE NOT designed to be refilled. The bleeder valve on the refillable was opened with a 7/16" wrench and liquid appeared when @ 80%. The valve stem looking thing on top is referred to as a pop off or relief valve if/when internal pressure exceeds safe operating pressure for container, it will vent vapor only and not liquid when upright as pictured. If container was on its side or upside down when it vented you would get liquid.
Edit to add that the 2 on the left only have a pressure relief valve, therefore there is no way to determine if/when they are 80% full unless you know container empty weight and what is designed weight for contents. Note that there is 2oz difference in net weight as designed. You cannot do these on a bathroom scale, you need to deal in ounces not 'kinda close' pounds. Way too easy to overfill these! The right 2 have a tube extending down to where they are designed for liquid level. As mentioned they have a bleeder/80% fill valve with pressure vent in the center. Sorry for my long rambles, just trying to make sure to not leave more questions afterwards than were had before.
This pic on the Paulin cylinder shows how the adaptor worked that we used which is no longer in production and available although one might find one somewhere yet I suppose.
Edit to add that the 2 on the left only have a pressure relief valve, therefore there is no way to determine if/when they are 80% full unless you know container empty weight and what is designed weight for contents. Note that there is 2oz difference in net weight as designed. You cannot do these on a bathroom scale, you need to deal in ounces not 'kinda close' pounds. Way too easy to overfill these! The right 2 have a tube extending down to where they are designed for liquid level. As mentioned they have a bleeder/80% fill valve with pressure vent in the center. Sorry for my long rambles, just trying to make sure to not leave more questions afterwards than were had before.
This pic on the Paulin cylinder shows how the adaptor worked that we used which is no longer in production and available although one might find one somewhere yet I suppose.
If I could sell 30 cents worth of propane for $3.59 I would put on the label not refillable too.
Anyone actually know of an explosion resulting from refilling them? My father-in-law refilled hundreds if not thousands of them with no problem.
Myself, I would just buy an adapter for my 2.5 or 5 gallon tank and connect that to whatever it was I needed a 1 lb bottle for.
Anyone actually know of an explosion resulting from refilling them? My father-in-law refilled hundreds if not thousands of them with no problem.
Myself, I would just buy an adapter for my 2.5 or 5 gallon tank and connect that to whatever it was I needed a 1 lb bottle for.
I have refilled many of the small bottles from the five-pound bottles. The only problem that I have found is that the refill is not too much and the bottle does not last as long before needing to be refilled. It saves a lot of money, but if you use very few bottles, then it really is a non-issue.
The bottle is not filled to capacity, so I don't think it is really that unsafe. The gas is pushed in at the pressure from the bigger bottle, not the commercial pressurized system.
I bought the adapter many years ago and I doubt that it is even available now, due to this uber-safety-conscious society.
The bottle is not filled to capacity, so I don't think it is really that unsafe. The gas is pushed in at the pressure from the bigger bottle, not the commercial pressurized system.
I bought the adapter many years ago and I doubt that it is even available now, due to this uber-safety-conscious society.
I have always refilled the 1 pounders. I used to ice fish, and went through lots, didn't know anyone who didn't. I have never heard of an accident of any kind doing it. Not saying none ever happened. But I would guess if there where a few, we would sure hear about it.
You cant ever get it as full as a new one, when you fill from a larger cylinder (we don't have pumps, just gravity/equalization). You can get 3/4 though if you freeze the cylinder first. Still beats paying $4 or $5 bucks a piece if you got through a lot of them.
Most of us do much more dangerous stuff by reloading ammo (gasp!) I remember when Fulton Armory had a whole webpage telling us we would blow our selves up by reloading, and we only shoot factory ammo.
If your not comfortable doing it (ammo or propane) don't!
You cant ever get it as full as a new one, when you fill from a larger cylinder (we don't have pumps, just gravity/equalization). You can get 3/4 though if you freeze the cylinder first. Still beats paying $4 or $5 bucks a piece if you got through a lot of them.
Most of us do much more dangerous stuff by reloading ammo (gasp!) I remember when Fulton Armory had a whole webpage telling us we would blow our selves up by reloading, and we only shoot factory ammo.
If your not comfortable doing it (ammo or propane) don't!
Well, I know once I provide contrary information to one uneducated comment I will be bombarded with 20 more that are given as much forthought and inexperienced inaccurate information as these 3. Not one of you fellows have actually worked at/in an LP plant/business, all from heresay or what you 'think' is right because YOU did it with no consequences and by golly ya saved a buck! Are you gents posting ONLY because it is the internet and you don't have to actually prove your point or what?? This is exactly why I rarely post anymore, just sick and tired of internet arguing and usually by people with little to no knowledge or experience. Tried to take the time to post accurate information and after the first contradictory post I then went and dug out items and took time to post pics to better educate people and provide accurate info as to why and what do ya know, heck despite 19+yrs experience I still don't know as much as those with NONE!!!!!
So lets see.....
Just to make a point as to why a meter, scale etc is necessary for proper and safe filling of LP containers @ say -20 you can pump about 525 gallons of LP into a 500 gallon tank! About 1050 gallon into a 1000gal. We could pump off 2750ish gallons off a 2600 gallon bobtail truck! A 1000gal tank would only hold about 950 gallon on a 90 degree day if you filled it 100%. That is how much volume variance there is in LP. So, over fill a small cylinder outside and then throw it in the cab and head for your ice house. Cylinder warms, expands and pops off, you hit the brakes, open the door to slide out and there is a spark from static and your nylon snowsuit, perfect air/fuel mix by chance and there goes your day of fishing. If lucky just a big scoup of Tide to clean that snowsuit, if not so lucky a couple of ER nurses and aids trying to pull the melted nylon off your blackened flesh!!!!
The supplier, a hardware store that filled cylinders was not a customer of ours at the time but he was sloppy and overfilled a 20 pounder which his customer set in the back of his pickup with a tight camper shell. He stopped at the grocery store and implement dealer for an hour or so and headed out of town not noticing the LP cylinder had tipped over. One half mile to main highway he didn't notice the bottle had started to emit liquid through relief valve from overfill just before he got to the stop sign. Whether it was a spark from brake lights or what his topper and back window 'left the building' and fire shortly consumed the remainder of his pickup. His deepest scars were emotional and deathly scared of LP thereafter. Wonder why there are laws against transporting cylinders in enclosed areas such as trunks and why they are to be upright???
This will be my last post on this thread. Was just trying to intelligently explain the how's and why's and what not to do to the OP. Silly me didn't stop and think that like everything else on the net I find out I know little when the dust settles!! Even with several years hands on experience and safety schools I know less than some whos only credentials is a one night Super Six receipt and not even Holiday Inn Express!!
I do sincerely appreciate the kind and appreciative responses from those who done so. My intent was to hopefully provide safe information! Sorry for the long winded ramble but am hoping it makes a point?
Respectfully,
Dennis
So lets see.....
Otter said:
sbhooper said:
KenO said:
Just to make a point as to why a meter, scale etc is necessary for proper and safe filling of LP containers @ say -20 you can pump about 525 gallons of LP into a 500 gallon tank! About 1050 gallon into a 1000gal. We could pump off 2750ish gallons off a 2600 gallon bobtail truck! A 1000gal tank would only hold about 950 gallon on a 90 degree day if you filled it 100%. That is how much volume variance there is in LP. So, over fill a small cylinder outside and then throw it in the cab and head for your ice house. Cylinder warms, expands and pops off, you hit the brakes, open the door to slide out and there is a spark from static and your nylon snowsuit, perfect air/fuel mix by chance and there goes your day of fishing. If lucky just a big scoup of Tide to clean that snowsuit, if not so lucky a couple of ER nurses and aids trying to pull the melted nylon off your blackened flesh!!!!
The supplier, a hardware store that filled cylinders was not a customer of ours at the time but he was sloppy and overfilled a 20 pounder which his customer set in the back of his pickup with a tight camper shell. He stopped at the grocery store and implement dealer for an hour or so and headed out of town not noticing the LP cylinder had tipped over. One half mile to main highway he didn't notice the bottle had started to emit liquid through relief valve from overfill just before he got to the stop sign. Whether it was a spark from brake lights or what his topper and back window 'left the building' and fire shortly consumed the remainder of his pickup. His deepest scars were emotional and deathly scared of LP thereafter. Wonder why there are laws against transporting cylinders in enclosed areas such as trunks and why they are to be upright???
This will be my last post on this thread. Was just trying to intelligently explain the how's and why's and what not to do to the OP. Silly me didn't stop and think that like everything else on the net I find out I know little when the dust settles!! Even with several years hands on experience and safety schools I know less than some whos only credentials is a one night Super Six receipt and not even Holiday Inn Express!!
I do sincerely appreciate the kind and appreciative responses from those who done so. My intent was to hopefully provide safe information! Sorry for the long winded ramble but am hoping it makes a point?
Respectfully,
Dennis
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