Reduced loads for kids hunting elk

[TiGuy]

My thirteen year old son will be joining us for his first elk hunt this year. I have been loading 139 grain hornady interlocks for his 7-08 with 34.8 grains of H4985 for him to practice with, and he has shown his competence with that load offhand @ 50 yards and shooting sticks @100. We'll be in a blind most of the time and we wont get any shots longer than that.

I haven't crono'ed this load yet but I'm guessing its in the 2000 - 2100 fps range. I may crono it just to know. He is very confident with this load and I would rather have him shoot a light load with accuracy than a full load with flinches ( I think). My concern is the load has a 4" POI drop compared to a stiff load @ 100 yards.

With a decent shot placement on a cow, do you think this load can do the job? I'll be with him the whole time as a backup with a MUCH larger gun, but I would feel better if I could get him to shoot a 26 - 2700 fps round. He just doesn't shoot that heavy a round as well. What do you think?

 

[watercam]

Try and get a true chrono reading of the load he is using. If it is 2300 fps or higher, go for it. My concern is whether or not there is enough velocity at his max range for the bullet to expand a bit. Seems 1800-1900 fps at the target would be a sensible minimum.
You are correct though, placement is everything and you will be there, make him comfortable so he isn't thinking about the thump to the shoulder.

 

[bozo699]

TiGuy,
More often than not people but there kid a 30-30 win for there first deer/elk rifle.
They kick like hell the kid hates it ends up being a bad shot and maybe even quit hunting alltogether because of it. By the way it shoots a 170 gr sp bullet about 2000fps,now your bullet is 31 gr lighter but if it doesn't kick him to death he will put the bullet where it belongs and the soft 139 gr hornady interlock should open up some @ those velocities,to check it out though get a couple or three very thick phone books or what ever soak them in the bathtub and have him shoot into them @ the ranges you mentioned if it opens up let him shoot his elk,don't be to quick to back him up he may do quite well but be ready just in case. Take your camera 13 to 18 go by quick Good luck to the both of you.
Wayne.

 

[dmg264]

TIGuy if you have him confident with the gun then just have him shoot full powered loads when you hunt. Sight the rifle in yourself with full powered loads before you go hunting and never tell him that you changed anything. I promise you he will NEVER notice the recoil if he is shooting an elk. I used scoped 22LR's for practice for both of my kids and when they got ready to hunt I just swapped the 22LR for a centerfire. My daughter used a .243 for her first kill and my son used a .308 and neither one ever felt any recoil and both were one shot bang flops.

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

I would keep the reduced loads. But for Elk I would try him with a couple of the 154 Gr. Interloc's.

Your theory about your boy and the lighter loads is spot on. Good on you for taking the time Dad.

 

[bozo699]

I would keep the reduced loads. But for Elk I would try him with a couple of the 154 Gr. Interloc's.

Your theory about your boy and the lighter loads is spot on. Good on you for taking the time Dad.

Very nicely put JohnnyJohnson, I as well think the reduced 154s in either interlocks or interbonds might be worth looking into, the recoil will be a bit more but the heavier bullet might be the ticket. I don't agree with not telling him about the full loads, you might load full loads and tell him they might kick a little more so he can adjust for it and shooting @ live animal he might not notice but I would hate to see him get a eyeball full of scope on his first hunt by not letting him no the loads have changed ??? Still if you are worried about expansion phone books or parts books ect... will simulate flesh good enough to see what your bullet is doing. Treat you son right on his first few hunts(and I can see you are ) ) and you will probably have a best friend and hunting partner for the rest of your life,I know it has worked for me.
Wayne.

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

Wayne you're totally right the boy should know it's not the same load. He will let dad know if he likes it or not.

I've seen lots of fathers over the years at hunter sight in at our range bring young small boys out giving them guns that didn't fit them. In calibers like 30-06 and 7MM Mag with heavy bullets. Poor kids got beat up pretty badly. A little thoughtfulness will give a dad the best hunting partner he'll ever have.

Once again hats off to TiGuy.

 

[bozo699]

Author Topic: Reduced loads for kids hunting elk (Read 54 times)
TiGuy,
Another thing you might consider, cabelas among others sell shooting pads you strap on your shoulder I use them alot while working up loads or sighting in rifles even the smaller stuff like .243s ( I dont like recoil either ) and they sell slip on recoil reducing pads for the rifle, there both fairley inexpensive and they WORK!! for you son the strap-on might be the ticket because his arm are probably pretty short and eye relief may be a issue with the butt pad system. My wife has a 7-08 and I am considering one of the mercury recoil systems you inlet into the forarm or butt stock of your rifle.
Wayne.

 

[bheadboy]

I started my two sons out with practice medium loads for training then loaded them for hunting with 130/140s one step down from max. when hunting they never felt the gun go off

They were 10 and 12 years old and never lost an animal

Bob

 

[North Fork]

Why don't you put a muzzle brake on the gun. Then you can use what ever load you want and not worry about the recoil.

 

[TheBlueEyedBear]

According to QuickLoad this load should provide a MV of 2500fps PLUS with a ME of just under 2000. With that bullet and these numbers there should be no problem taking an Elk at the range you mentioned. My first Elk was taken with a 100gr bullet.
As previously mentioned, shot placement is most important. If you shoot the animal in the butt with this bullet she is really going to be POed and so is her boyfriend.
Have a great hunt and best of luck to your son.

 

[TheBlueEyedBear]

As North Fork mentioned, reducing recoil is a great way to go. Muzzle brakes are great, but if that option is too expensive and not feasible due to time constraints, a mercury recoil reducer would be a great option. GRACO makes one for $49.00. Simply drill a hole in the butt of the stock, insert the recoil reducer and put the recoil pad back on.

 

[bozo699]

I agree with you BlueEyedBear reducing recoil is a big plus but the thought of haveing to wear earplugs on a hunt, well I don't like it, but the mercury recoil system sounds like a good idea.
Wayne.

 

[Kenny474]

I can remember back when I first started hunting, and I was given a 12ga slug gun shooting 3" copper solids. I had never shot it prior to using it hunting, as I was away and my father did the sight in work. When I did finally get a shot at a deer, I never even felt the gun go off. And never felt the second shot either. I was 12 and maybe weighed 130-140lbs at most, likely closer to 120. But I was able to drop 2 deer with a shot a piece, simple bang flop on both occasions with a gun I had never shot prior to my first deer with it.
I can remember the next pre-season when I shot the gun at the range when I was shooting paper instead of deer, and man did that 12ga have some recoil! It wasn't something a 12yr old could practice with for more than maybe 10 shots without being beat to death by recoil. But I continued to take deer with that same gun and 3" copper solids every year until I discovered I liked shooting a 30-06 and 180 or 220gr bullets a whole lot more, and could reach a lot farther as well. I was about 15 or 16 at that point, and after shooting the 12ga for so long, the 30-06 was like shooting a 22lr. Nothing to it, never felt recoil, especially when I had a deer in my face.

The boy will have that rifle held so tight it will never allow the scope near his face, and he will never know if you switch to full house loads or leave them the same. All he is going to be concentrating on is the Elk standing a few yards away and how bad he wants it on the ground.

I now have a 16yr old brother, 13yrs younger than I, who I took hunting for his first time when he was 14 with the same 11-87 12ga and my left over 3" copper solids from 14 years ago. He, the same way I did, shot it for the first time at a deer and never even blinked when the gun went off. One shot, one kill, two brothers years apart with the same gun. And yes, he hated shooting it the next year at the range as well.

 

[15Tango]

If you want a true reduced load to ensure an enjoyable hunt use Trail Boss.

Starting on page 50 of Hodgdon's 2010 manual there's an article on reduced loads using Trail boss by Layne Simpson.

A few notes:

"Best accuracy with Trail Boss and jacketed bullets in bottleneck cartridges is usually found between 70 and 100 percent load density."

"Trail Boss does not deliver its best accuracy wen compressed, and the smallest groups will come with charges ranging from the minimums suggested by Hodgdon to those that just fill the case to the base of the bullet when it is seated."

Hodgdon's data online lists a 140 grain (7MM-08) at 2.750" COAL, 11.0 grains of Trail boss start load giving 1211 FPS, 16.0 grains gives 1472 FPS and only 43,300 PSI.

If you're scared by the idea of using Trail Boss in a rifle cartridge note this from the article:

"Ron Reiber, who for many years has been the head ballistician at Hodgdon said it is impossible to overcharge any cartridge with Trail Boss, simply because it is impossible to get enough in the case to exceed maximum pressures."

Trail Boss is safe because it's so fluffy, gives a nice gentle load for the kids, ignition shouldn't be an issue in any weather and it's really cheap to shoot 16 grains of powder versus 40+.

In the article there are also instructions on shooting reduced loads through the same rifle as your standard hunting loads without moving the sight in point.

Wayne

 

[cliffe]

trail boss loads for a 7mm08 are for plinking. not for shooting an elk....cliffe

 

[bozo699]

cliffe,
I have seen you posts before,you can do better than that, is this just the windup before the pitch? I know how much you like the .243 and such. Now give us the whole post LOL with you cliffe I know you have some more and valuable input on this matter,now let have it.
Wayne.

 

[Kenny474]

Wayne, I think Cliffy is the .243 supporter, not Cliffe, though I may be wrong.

And I agree that Trail Boss is best left for plinking and not for use on Elk.

 

[bozo699]

Kenny,
you ar right as usuall I was just funning around. Cliffe I did mistake you for Cliffy
@ any rate I was just clowning around. Sorry :-[
Wayne.

 

[15Tango]

I imagine at those slow speeds it would certainly penetrate enough and as said by others, shot placement and all . . . If a 40 grain at 1200 FPS .22LR will take down a White Tail with proper placement I'm sure a 140 at 1500FPS would do okay on elk. It might be enough for some to get into semantics over ethical hunting practices and to avoid everybody's objections to that I'm sure the kids would have to shoot at least a 300 RUM.

I was just suggesting it as another option so some 6 year old kid doesn't have to explain in school the next week why he's got a black eye and a nasty gash on his face along with a new disdain for their father and hunting.

Wayne