Redding "S" Type or Redding Competition dies...Whats the difference???

[robbobsam]

Hiya Guys,

I am new to reloading and think I may have made a mistake.

I have purchased a set of Redding bushing competition dies and am not sure if I should have just got the "S" type dies instead.

What is the difference in them?

Do the competition dies size the inside of the neck or do I have to buy further gadgets for that as well. I have looked on the Redding site and it is not clear.

 

[Laurie]

The Redding Type 'S' is a bushing-type full-length sizer die, that incorporates an expander ball on the decapper stem as standard.

The 'Competition' sizer equivalent is a neck-sizing only bushing die. Unlike the 'S' it has a micrometer top that allows you to easily vary the length of the neck section that is sized and also to retain a record of the setting. It also incorporates a sliding sleeve with case-form 'chamber' to support the case while the neck is being sized to improve neck concentricity on the sized case.

The 'Competition' seater is a micrometer top die frequently sold in a set with either of the above. It too uses a sliding sleeve that supports the case as well as a floating seater stem to help produce concentric finished rounds (ie low bullet runout values). It generally produces very good results.

If you've bought a full 'Competition' die set, you'll also get a body die that sizes the case body down and resets the shoulder position, but doesn't touch the neck. Body dies are usually needed in such set ups because N-S only sized cases often become too tight in the chamber after a few firings.

The issue of expansion is interesting, which you've obviously picked up on. Bushing sizers without an expander ball are really meant for very consistent neck thickness brass, that is, consistent both within a single case, and also consistent between different cases in the box. Ideally, necks will be turned, if only to give a 'clean-up' to reduce any such inconsistencies. As they only size down, any neck-thickness irregularities that are present in the brass are transferred to the inside walls of the neck and the bullet swages them back out on seating - not ideal. Likewise, if one case has a thicker neck than another it ends up with a smaller inside neck-dia. and hence more neck tension than its fellows - that's what the expander ball is for in conventional dies, to cope with such variations in necks and ensure every case is expanded to the same internal neck dia.

So, you may want a Type 'S', or an alternative is to use the 'Competition' sizer then run an expander mandrel (Lyman 'M' die, or Sinclair, K&M, etc expander die + appropriate calibre 'E' mandrel) through the cases after lubing the inside walls of the necks. Mandrel expansion is superior to pulling the case over an expander ball - much less stress on the case and more likely to produce a concentric result, but at the expense of more kit and an extra step in the reloading process.

The Type 'S' Gives very good results however for a die with inbuilt expander. The trick is to choose a bushing size that sizes the neck down barely enough so the expander ball only just kisses the neck surfaces as the case is withdrawn from the die. Redding also produces an optional carbide replacement ball that reduces expansion effort and stress on the case even more.

Laurie,
York, England

 

[robbobsam]

The Redding Type 'S' is a bushing-type full-length sizer die, that incorporates an expander ball on the decapper stem as standard.

The 'Competition' sizer equivalent is a neck-sizing only bushing die. Unlike the 'S' it has a micrometer top that allows you to easily vary the length of the neck section that is sized and also to retain a record of the setting. It also incorporates a sliding sleeve with case-form 'chamber' to support the case while the neck is being sized to improve neck concentricity on the sized case.

The 'Competition' seater is a micrometer top die frequently sold in a set with either of the above. It too uses a sliding sleeve that supports the case as well as a floating seater stem to help produce concentric finished rounds (ie low bullet runout values). It generally produces very good results.

If you've bought a full 'Competition' die set, you'll also get a body die that sizes the case body down and resets the shoulder position, but doesn't touch the neck. Body dies are usually needed in such set ups because N-S only sized cases often become too tight in the chamber after a few firings.

The issue of expansion is interesting, which you've obviously picked up on. Bushing sizers without an expander ball are really meant for very consistent neck thickness brass, that is, consistent both within a single case, and also consistent between different cases in the box. Ideally, necks will be turned, if only to give a 'clean-up' to reduce any such inconsistencies. As they only size down, any neck-thickness irregularities that are present in the brass are transferred to the inside walls of the neck and the bullet swages them back out on seating - not ideal. Likewise, if one case has a thicker neck than another it ends up with a smaller inside neck-dia. and hence more neck tension than its fellows - that's what the expander ball is for in conventional dies, to cope with such variations in necks and ensure every case is expanded to the same internal neck dia.

So, you may want a Type 'S', or an alternative is to use the 'Competition' sizer then run an expander mandrel (Lyman 'M' die, or Sinclair, K&M, etc expander die + appropriate calibre 'E' mandrel) through the cases after lubing the inside walls of the necks. Mandrel expansion is superior to pulling the case over an expander ball - much less stress on the case and more likely to produce a concentric result, but at the expense of more kit and an extra step in the reloading process.

The Type 'S' Gives very good results however for a die with inbuilt expander. The trick is to choose a bushing size that sizes the neck down barely enough so the expander ball only just kisses the neck surfaces as the case is withdrawn from the die. Redding also produces an optional carbide replacement ball that reduces expansion effort and stress on the case even more.

Laurie,
York, England

I was a toolmaker many years ago before I joined the fire service so I can see how just forcing the outside of a brass case through a bush will also impact on the internal dimensions as well. It will also show all deviations in neck thickness size which will affect grip on bullet and accuracy.

Maybe I am being too fussy ???

I thought this was a precision sport. ???

Ideally the outside and inside of the case neck needs to be sized at the same time whilst holding the main body concentric, wouldn't you agree ???

 

[Laurie]

Maybe I am being too fussy ???

Not at all - that's the point I was making. That's one reason why people neck-turn cases - get rid of the variations within a case and between cases and a major source of inconsistency in the finished round is removed

Ideally the outside and inside of the case neck needs to be sized at the same time whilst holding the main body concentric, wouldn't you agree ???

That seem's 'logical', but there isn't a single conventional die on the market that does this. Try to squeeze the neck down by forcing it through the limited space between an external bushing and internal stem and you crush the case telescoping it in the lower neck-shoulder-upper body section- remember just how soft brass is! So, conventional dies do the neck reduction part first on the ram up-stroke and expand the neck separately as the case is withdrawn from the die on the downstroke. The concept behind the Redding 'Competition' die, all Wilson type precision dies, and the Forster Bushing-Bump die is to get precision into the system through case preparation first, and then simply do without expansion. A far superior system precision-wise, but too much work and hassle for most people who handload including many competition shooters.

The only die I know of that gets around this inherent weakness is the Lee Collet (neck-sizing) die that squeezes the neck onto a mandrel using a multi-tine collet that closes onto the neck as the die is pushed against the shellholder. It usually leaves longitudinal striations on the outside of the case-neck. For that and other reasons, many people don't like this die. I have around 15 on hand for different cartridges and find that they give good results for the money and have the great advantage of being very quick and easy to use, no lubrication needed for instance. However, if the rifle chamber is at all out of true, they won't correct any resulting misalignment in the fired case, so may not always give top results in factory rifles. They are a boon for loading lots of reasonably accurate ammunition. I wouldn't use one on my precision ammunition or long-range stuff.

 

[robbobsam]

Maybe I am being too fussy ???

Not at all - that's the point I was making. That's one reason why people neck-turn cases - get rid of the variations within a case and between cases and a major source of inconsistency in the finished round is removed

Ideally the outside and inside of the case neck needs to be sized at the same time whilst holding the main body concentric, wouldn't you agree ???

That seem's 'logical', but there isn't a single conventional die on the market that does this. Try to squeeze the neck down by forcing it through the limited space between an external bushing and internal stem and you crush the case telescoping it in the lower neck-shoulder-upper body section- remember just how soft brass is! So, conventional dies do the neck reduction part first on the ram up-stroke and expand the neck separately as the case is withdrawn from the die on the downstroke. The concept behind the Redding 'Competition' die, all Wilson type precision dies, and the Forster Bushing-Bump die is to get precision into the system through case preparation first, and then simply do without expansion. A far superior system precision-wise, but too much work and hassle for most people who handload including many competition shooters.

The only die I know of that gets around this inherent weakness is the Lee Collet (neck-sizing) die that squeezes the neck onto a mandrel using a multi-tine collet that closes onto the neck as the die is pushed against the shellholder. It usually leaves longitudinal striations on the outside of the case-neck. For that and other reasons, many people don't like this die. I have around 15 on hand for different cartridges and find that they give good results for the money and have the great advantage of being very quick and easy to use, no lubrication needed for instance. However, if the rifle chamber is at all out of true, they won't correct any resulting misalignment in the fired case, so may not always give top results in factory rifles. They are a boon for loading lots of reasonably accurate ammunition. I wouldn't use one on my precision ammunition or long-range stuff.

Thanks for your replies and thoughts Laurie, I will try the Redding competition dies and go from there.

I am sure I will get the accuracy I am looking for eventually.

 

[Nomo4me]

Proponents of Lee collet neck dies never mention the extra physical effort their use imparts to the loading process. When multiplied by X number of cases sized it adds up. Workplace repetitive stress injuries have resulted from less.

 

[jhord]

I've been using a Lee collet die reloading .223 ammo and have found it to work very well. It helps to disassemble the die and give it a good "tweaking," polishing the mandrel, removing sharp edges in the collet, and so forth. I use spray lube (Hornady) on the case necks and this really improves the way it works, IMO. (you don't want that mandrel to pull on things or gall the ID on the upstroke) Also where the collet is pinched inside needs a little lube, to keep it from sticking. I haven't had a problem with the striations, but I think the neck in my gun is a little tighter than most, so the brass isn't being squeezed down onto the mandrel that much. I also lift up and give the case a 1/3 turn and hit it again, this seems to make the striations virtually non-existent. I could see how, if you had a gun with a loose neck, the collet would leave "folds" in the brass.

 

[CharlieSA]

The Redding Type 'S' is a bushing-type full-length sizer die, that incorporates an expander ball on the decapper stem as standard.

The 'Competition' sizer equivalent is a neck-sizing only bushing die. Unlike the 'S' it has a micrometer top that allows you to easily vary the length of the neck section that is sized and also to retain a record of the setting. It also incorporates a sliding sleeve with case-form 'chamber' to support the case while the neck is being sized to improve neck concentricity on the sized case.

The 'Competition' seater is a micrometer top die frequently sold in a set with either of the above. It too uses a sliding sleeve that supports the case as well as a floating seater stem to help produce concentric finished rounds (ie low bullet runout values). It generally produces very good results.

If you've bought a full 'Competition' die set, you'll also get a body die that sizes the case body down and resets the shoulder position, but doesn't touch the neck. Body dies are usually needed in such set ups because N-S only sized cases often become too tight in the chamber after a few firings.

The issue of expansion is interesting, which you've obviously picked up on. Bushing sizers without an expander ball are really meant for very consistent neck thickness brass, that is, consistent both within a single case, and also consistent between different cases in the box. Ideally, necks will be turned, if only to give a 'clean-up' to reduce any such inconsistencies. As they only size down, any neck-thickness irregularities that are present in the brass are transferred to the inside walls of the neck and the bullet swages them back out on seating - not ideal. Likewise, if one case has a thicker neck than another it ends up with a smaller inside neck-dia. and hence more neck tension than its fellows - that's what the expander ball is for in conventional dies, to cope with such variations in necks and ensure every case is expanded to the same internal neck dia.

So, you may want a Type 'S', or an alternative is to use the 'Competition' sizer then run an expander mandrel (Lyman 'M' die, or Sinclair, K&M, etc expander die + appropriate calibre 'E' mandrel) through the cases after lubing the inside walls of the necks. Mandrel expansion is superior to pulling the case over an expander ball - much less stress on the case and more likely to produce a concentric result, but at the expense of more kit and an extra step in the reloading process.

The Type 'S' Gives very good results however for a die with inbuilt expander. The trick is to choose a bushing size that sizes the neck down barely enough so the expander ball only just kisses the neck surfaces as the case is withdrawn from the die. Redding also produces an optional carbide replacement ball that reduces expansion effort and stress on the case even more.

Laurie,
York, England

Hi Laurie, what would you suggest to choose between the Redding Competition and Type S or Type S Match dies?

 

[Shynloco]

The Redding Type 'S' is a bushing-type full-length sizer die, that incorporates an expander ball on the decapper stem as standard..... Redding also produces an optional carbide replacement ball that reduces expansion effort and stress on the case even more.

Laurie,
York, England

Robbobsam,
As usual, Laurie provided an excellent answer to your posed question. Also, pay attention to his highlighted words above. Personally, I wouldn't ever use the standard Expander Ball whenever I place a Bushing in the "S" Die for exact Neck Sizing. IMHO, there's too much of a chance the standard Expander Ball will interfere with the Bushing sizing. So as Laurie says, Redding provides a blk carbide replacement ball that is much smaller and has no effect on Neck Sizing. It is there essentially to hold the Decapping Pin in place and nothing else. Just my .02 worth.

Alex

 

[mikegaiz]

I have been using the "S" FL dies with a lot of success. Mine came with a extra pin holder with no ball in the box.

 

[SS427]

I consider the Redding competition neck sizing die a waste of money. You don't need a micrometer to neck size, or at least I never found the need. The type S die is all you need from a factory die; remove the expander ball and control things with the size of bushing.

The Redding competition seating die is GREAT though. The micrometer is very useful for adjusting seating depth. I sold a couple of them, along with a competition NS die, and replaced with type S FL sizing dies and Wilson seating dies. The type S sizing die was an improvement, but not sure I gained much over the competition seating die. Those were nice dies.

 

[Baer45]

I use the Redding type s fl bushing die with great success. I remove the expander ball and then use a Sinclair expander mandrel in next station to align neck, etc. 6.5 Guys have a great step by step video and printable i’nstructional on how to use it for competition shooting on a Progressive press....almost as fast as loading pistol ammo but retains top accuracy...

 

[Fotheringill]

Proponents of Lee collet neck dies never mention the extra physical effort their use imparts to the loading process. When multiplied by X number of cases sized it adds up. Workplace repetitive stress injuries have resulted from less.

I hate to say if, and with all due respect, if there is force required in use of the Lee collet neck sizing die, it is not set up correctly. My computer set up rearranged my internet files and indexes (or probably self inflicted) so I can't give the link to the long post here by someone. Ignore the instructions by Lee packed with the die. I get very consistent minimal run out, no muscle ache whatsoever and minimal pressure required for neck sizing. There is a mandrel and not a button inside which centers the case on the upstroke eases the way in lowering the shell after resizing. Considering the amount of money I have spent in bars and taverns with shows involving various states of undress by performers, this was the best $25 +/- I have ever spent.