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Redding 'S' Type dies stretching too much of case?

I've got the Redding S Type die for my 204. Everything seems to be working well except I notice that I can see where the brass has been worked all the way down the brass to just above the band/base. I was under the impression that this set up was only supposed to work a much smaller part of the brass to extend life. Do you think this is normal or do you think I have it set up wrong?

I use the Hornady measuring system to ensure I'm bumping around 1.5 thousands. I can see that only part of the neck is getting sized. Just surpised at the amount the case is being worked.
 
Sounds like you have a Type-S full length bushing die when you were expecting a Type-S neck die. They both use a bushing which only sizes part of the neck but the full length die sizes the rest of the case as well
 
It is not whether the case is being sized down to near the extractor groove. It is how much the diameter, both at base and shoulder, are being reduced. Ideally, it should be about .001".
 
Sleepygator's right. Who chambered your rifle & with what reamer profile? You might want to ask if you don't know the latter. Factory dies are made to fit a wide variety of chambers for a 'reasonable' price. Custom dies - made either from your fired cases or the reamer drawing - will work your brass to fit your chamber best but at a significantly higher price.

Your chamber could have been cut a little on the generous side of the tolerances too....

Reducing fired case diameter in front of the extractor groove is a necessary part of proper sizing for most tapered cases. Whether you're seeing what could be construed as too much needs to be determined.

Bumping isn't the same thing (you know this) & that's where most folks get into problems with case stretch.
 
Hugh,
Sounds like the others have given you the same advice as I would have but as a side note I believe in f/l sizing the case each time I reload my cases but I like to buy the type s neck set, it comes with a body die, for me this is much better because I can size the body and work the neck separate, it just gives me a little more control. Some people actually like to neck size and only size the body when you get hard bolt closer, I personally feel this is wrong because I feel the key to accuracy is consistency however there have many world records set by neck sizing only so who am I to say with no world records, anyway JMHO's best of luck.
Wayne.
 
OK, I'm learning something new here I think.

First, I'm using the full length redding type s die and only partially sizing (just enough to bump back 1 or 2 thou). I just went that way because some bench rest shooters said that was the way to go.

I didn't realize that you actually need to make the case of the cartridge smaller by 1 thousandth too. That is re-assuring and explains the marks on my brass.

Also, (I think I read this in a Lee Collet thread), I didn't realize that you are trying to make the inside diameter of the neck 2 thousandths smaller.

This gives me a much better idea of what I'm trying to accomplish and how to measure success.

Thanks
 
Missed some points.

This is a factory 204 Savage LRPV - 26" heavy barrel, single shot, port is on the left, target trigger.

Using the Type 's' FL sizer and partially sizing allows me to do everything in one step.
 
If you are bumping the shoulder at all, you are FL sizing, not partial FL sizing (which I do not find useful in most situations). The issue is the fit between the chamber and the die. Because yours is a factory chamber, it will probably be quite a bit bigger than most off the shelf FL dies. It seems to me that in order to reduce the amount that your cases are being worked (amount of reduction in diameter throughout the length of the body) that a custom die will be required. Hornady makes these at a reasonable (for a custom die) price. If you ever rebarrel, you might want to order your own reamer, using sized cases as a starting point, so that you will end up with the fit that you prefer. Benchrest shooters pay close attention to the amount that their FL dies reduce the body diameters of cases, keeping it to a minimum, so that the brass is barely worked, just enough to facilitate free chambering.
 
BoydAllen:

I am very new at this and I’d like to explore more about using Full Length dies to bump the shoulder 2 thousandths or less. As I say, I’m new at this, but I have heard this referred to as partial sizing and I don’t know what else to call it because as I understand it your not doing a complete full length resize. I have heard that certain dies don’t do this well, see the article below. I'm trying to learn this so bear with me.

Here is some of the research I dug up that made me land on using the Redding Full Length Type ’S” die:

Here is a quote from the 6mmBR website: “Among factory 6BR sizing dies, it’s hard to go wrong with a Redding Type ‘S’ full-length bushing die. This will both resize the case (and bump the shoulder) as necessary, and allow you to adjust neck tension with bushings”

Then there is an article in the 6mmBR website called “Die issues when bumping shoulders”. Here is the conclusion after they couldn’t bump the shoulder successfully with an RCBS Gold Medal bushing full-length sizing die: “Lesson Learned: If your full-length die can’t bump your brass even when it is screwed down all the way (to cam-over if necessary), then you need a different die or you need to modify your die. As proof of this, we took out my trusty Redding 6mmBR full-length sizing die. This was set up (from experience), one-half turn off contact with the shell-holder. In that position, the Redding die easily bumped the shoulder of a fired case .002″ with no trouble whatsoever. We started at 1.570″ and ended up 1.568″ — right where we wanted to be. The task that couldn’t be done with the RCBS Gold Medal FL Die was accomplished easily with the Redding die. After lubing the case, we simply raised the ram to full height, and this moved the shoulder back .002″ as measured with the Harrell’s collar positioned on the shoulder.

Also, I talked alot to Larry Willis (see his website) who recommended using the Redding type ’s’ dies and here is part of an article from his website (I assume he is ok with me copying it as long as I make it clear I have copied this):
“full length resizing must be done accurately if it's going to make better handloads. It's best to bump the shoulder -.001" to -.002" at the most. This requires measuring the clearance (at the shoulder) that YOUR handloads have in YOUR particular chamber. This is very easy to measure.

 A properly used FL die bumps the shoulder, sizes the neck, and slightly resizes the "tapered" body while your case is fully supported - perfectly concentric in one die. When full length resizing is done properly, it delivers the very best accuracy, improved case life, and reliable chambering. So . . . . how can you resize accurately with an ordinary full length resizing die?

 Actual case measurements alone are worthless unless you can also measure your particular chamber at the shoulder. Accurate full length resizing means having - .001” to - .002” clearance at the shoulder (and no more). This requires "measuring" the clearance that YOUR handloads have in YOUR particular rifle. Then you can set your FL resizing die to "accurately" bump your case shoulder just like expensive custom benchrest dies. Your FL die can also resize the neck while the case is completely supported (and aligned) inside one die, and in one operation. Case run-out is reduced, accuracy is improved, and your handloads will always chamber with a perfect fit.”
Larry developed a tool for measuring headspace which I have used along with the Hornady head space and bullet comparitor tools.
 
No disrespect to Larry, but shooters have been making determinations about the relationship between chambers and dies for a long time before he came out with his tool. Although fired cases do not give a perfect image of the chamber that they were fired in, they can certainly be measured before and after FL sizing to determine what dimensional changes the die, and how it is set have produced. For a more accurate assessment (which may not be necessary for most purposes) a chamber cast may be done using cerosafe that may be purchased from Brownells. So called partial FL sizing involves setting the die so that the shoulder of the die never comes down to the shoulder of the case, and the case neck is only partially sized in the process. Depending on the taper of the case body, the fit of the die, and the length of the neck, different results are possible. One thing that is possible, is some situations, is that the distance from the datum line on the shoulder to the case head may actually be made longer than that of a fired case. Die manufacturers have no control over how big rifle chambers are. If you go to the SAAMI web site, and look around for the drawings of the caliber you are working with, you should see that there is a considerable difference allowed between the largest and smallest chambers, and if one compares the smallest allowed size of ammunition to the largest chamber the difference is even greater. This is why gunsmiths and their customers often order custom chamber reamers. By doing so they are able to control the fit of ammunition in the chamber....a very good thing. When you are working with a factory chamber, the only way that you can control this fit is with a custom die, and even that will not be able to help with a large neck clearance. It seems to me that you have done some homework and pay attention to details, all good. If I can be of any assistance you may PM me.
 
Hugh,
Boyd has and does help me a lot, he is very knowledgeable, it's obvious you still aren't clear on this, and there's nothing wrong with that, there isn't a single person on here that was born knowing what your trying to understand, so if your not clear by his last post,....Boyd will put it so you will understand exactly what is taking place and what needs done. There's a lot more to setting up a die via factory die instructions and cycling brass through them, I know from experience as that is how many if not most start out doing it including me, best of luck my friend :)
Wayne.
 
Boyd - your explanation rings very true. I've been trying to bump the shoulder with RCBS and Lee full length dies as well the Redding. With all of my F/L dies I thought I was going insane because exactly as the article in 6mm and you explain, sometimes the shoulder ends up being longer as opposed to bumping it back 2 thousandths.

Gawd, want to buy some dies?

I will pm you.

Thanks for your help and you to Bozo
 
I have been researching the subject more, and I think I'm starting to understand what you guys are trying to tell me. Here is an informative article from 6mmBR:


Full-Length Bushing Dies and Die Conversions
--by Jim Carstensen
Profile: Jim Carstensen is the owner and lead engineer for JLC Precision, in Bellevue, Iowa. With over a decade of precision machining experience, he specializes in crafting custom dies and die conversions. JLC Precision also performs corrective work on Leupold benchrest scopes, and Jim does expert gunsmithing on both benchrest and varmint rifles.

6mmBR.com asked Jim about the custom full-length bushing dies he produces. Here is his analysis.

The JLC Bushing Die Conversion
I've converted dies to accept sizing bushings for 10 years. I can take any die, either a neck or full length die, (with the exception of a carbide die) and convert it to resize the neck with a bushing. This allows you precise control over neck tension without the disadvantages of an expander ball. They work best with necks that have been outside neck-turned, so as to remove the inconsistencies that you have with virgin brass. Turned necks will also result in the bullet being centered better in the chamber. I think a majority of the growth that reloaders get in their brass is due to pulling the expander ball back out of a resized neck.

Dies That Work Best for the 6mm BR
Now as to the 6mm BR, I don't think there is a good standard die available for it. Most over-resize the front portion of the case near the shoulder, and don't resize the base of the case enough, if at all. The Redding body die (photo top left) is an exception to this. I use these and am able to open them up for bushings and install a decapping system. If you want a Bushing Die conversion done, I suggest you get a Redding 6BR body die and we will use this as the "donor" die core, which will then be honed and converted to bushings. Another option, if you need a die that is tighter on the base, is to use a small base body die. The procedure is the same, up to a point. This die will oversize the brass coming out of a chamber designed for Lapua brass.

Custom Honing the Conversion Die
When making a JLC conversion Die, I don't just fit them for bushings. I measure your fired cases, and then start honing and polishing the die core to match. I will periodically stop to resize a piece of brass and check it against a fired case. This can take a long time, depending on the size of the chamber. I feel that the front of the case just below the shoulder should be resized about .0005", and the base resized .001". I also think the shoulder, or datum line needs to be pushed back no more than .001". This is what I strive for compared to brass that has been fired several times. It is the honing process that I do that makes the JLC conversion different and (I believe) better, than a standard Redding Type S full-length bushing die. The Type S full-length bushing die works the same way as my conversion does, in the sense that it sizes both the case body and the neck (by way of bushings). However, the Type S die, out of the box, will not be honed to fit your fired brass. Mine will.

These resize dimensions stated above (.0005" shoulder reduction, .001" base reduction), will work well with all chamberings I have encountered. When working with a larger capacity case (the 338 Lapua Magnum for example), I will increase the amount of resize slightly. I feel the resize on the base of the case is the most important component in achieving satisfactory brass life. Resizing with a die with the correct shoulder/base dimensions, and using it every time you reload, will result in the longest case life and easiest bolt operation. If you wait until the brass is getting hard to chamber and extract before resizing, most likely it will never work well again. This is because of the memory effect of the brass case. Once it gets to an oversized state, after resizing, upon firing it will simply stretch back to the same condition, and extract hard again.

Dies Made from Chambering Reamers--Why They're Not a Good Concept
You may have heard of "bump" dies. These are made with the same reamer used to cut the chamber. They won't resize the sides and base of the brass, but they will bump the shoulder back, decap, and resize the neck with a bushing. In my opinion, they are a waste of money. After very few firings, the brass will start getting tight, and there's nothing to be done about it. You could bump the shoulder back an excessive and dangerous amount to ease chambering, but then a case separation is imminent.

If the action bolt is clicking or popping at the top of the bolt lift, it indicates that the brass is too big near the base. Once you start getting this, you might as well throw the brass in the garbage, as it will be impossible to stop when using full power loads. I think this is the most common complaint with 6mm BR or 6 PPC chamberings. If the bolt closes and opens hard throughout the whole stroke without the pop at the top, this indicates the shoulder needs to be pushed back.

A "Full Custom" Die -- The Total Solution
I can't run any reamer into the body of a factory die to change the dimensions. Dies are too hard to modify this way. If a die that is small enough to begin with can't be found, I can make a full custom die. I have total control over the amount of resize and where the resize is done at. I make a hardened bushing die with a decapping system. I work off fired cases for that chamber. This will cost around $200.00, but it will be a perfect die for the chamber for which it was made. Designed to be used after every firing, the dimensions will give the ideal amount of shoulder bump and body-sizing, no more, no less.
 
Inconsistent shoulder bump is a brass issue, not a die issue. The cases vary in hardness, form the factory. PROPER annealing is the answer, and that is a whole other can of worms that should be researched thoroughly on this site to save time and posters' effort. It is all there.
 
BoydAllen said:
Inconsistent shoulder bump is a brass issue, not a die issue. The cases vary in hardness, form the factory. PROPER annealing is the answer, and that is a whole other can of worms that should be researched thoroughly on this site to save time and posters' effort. It is all there.
To add to Boyds comment on shoulder bump which I agree with, Type of lube and consistency of the application of lube greatly effects shoulder bump, at least in my experience.
Wayne.
 
I'm picky with my lube too and how much I let build up before cleaning. As soon as I see lube beginning to build on bumped shoulder. I pull the die and clean it out. I f I haven't cleaned my brass, I sometimes have to clean the die every 10 sized rounds with larger calibers like my .358 Norma Mag. Much less often with brass from something like my 20 VarTarg because much less lube is required. Don't have to put as much on once lube builds in the die. And of course too much lube build up can not only cause inconsistent shoulder sizing, but even get to the point where it will damage the brass. It's tedious cleaning the die all the time, but makes me sleep better at night knowing I did everything I could : )

I heard that spray lubes like Hornady's One Shot work pretty good and do not build up nearly as much. Maybe I should try a spray...
I never have because I don't know if I can live with the idea of getting lube on the inside of my cases. Sure I could figure out a way to avoid that though.
 
I too I'm new at reloading and what you guy have been saying is starting to make more since to me. I'm having a hard time bumping shoulders back concisely to, it driving me crazy. I'm just learning and don't want to get to technical yet, but want to get the basic down so I under stand better. So if I measure a fired case then slowly resize with a FL die I can get a better fit for my camber with out over doing it.
 
Hoyt,
Your f/l die is going to resize the body of your case at whatever dimensions the that the die is there is no changing that without custom work done, measuring the shoulder bump you can control, if the cases have many firings on them they may need annealed and it is very important to have the case lube evenly spread on your cases and the same on each case to get a even shoulder bump, you also need to have tools designed to measure shoulder bump, without tools you have no way to tell where you are at, so if you have the die set to far down your shoulder gets bumped too far not enough and you risk actually stretching the case from the base to datum more then it was before it came from the chamber. Some people don't use tools they pull the firing pin and ejector from there bolt and go by feel, I like tools myself.
Wayne.
 
bozo699 said:
Some people don't use tools they pull the firing pin and ejector from there bolt and go by feel, I like tools myself.
Wayne.

There is an old saying in Quality Assurance:

"That which is not measured, will not be fixed."
 
Bozo669,

I bought the tools to do the measuring (Hornadys) but until I read this tread I don't realize you get what the die you bought gives you on case resizing. With that being said I thought you could fine tune alittle more with regular dies. I did find out about stretching the case after using the Hornady shoulder tool by pushing the shoulder back to far. I guess I'll play with pushing the shoulder back a little at a time and all the case prep,bullet seat length,different powders and the little stuff until I understand it more. I haven't got into custom rifles yet, just factory so no custom chambers to worry about right now. Thanks for the education you guys are great help hope to learn more. Slow process on the internet.

Frank
 

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