Redding Match Full Length Sizing Only 75% of Neck?

[Dusty Stevens]

Does this theory square up with what you benchrest guys see?

No. I hear this often but you can actually see the difference in .003 and .004 neck tension if you have a rifle that can shoot it. Most times it doesnt matter but like primers you may can see the difference in .001 or .003

 

[dcali]

No. I hear this often but you can actually see the difference in .003 and .004 neck tension if you have a rifle that can shoot it. Most times it doesnt matter but like primers you may can see the difference in .001 or .003

That would be consistent with what I wrote. If this simplistic theory is sufficient, there should be a difference between 0.003 and 0.004, but I would expect both of those to be less consistent tension than, say, 0.001, because you're heavily into plastic deformation at .003.

 

[spclark]

Neil jones makes one a whole lot cheaper. Not necessary but he makes it for those that want it. His bushing has the neck and shoulder built in

I was gonna post that about Neil’s dies too. Good example of high quality workmanship at an affordable price.

Only other source I know of w/shoulder+neck surface bushings is David Tubb; but his aren’t available to fit your cartridges, just those he’s developed like 6XC.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Hey guys. I've owned and used Redding Type S Match Neck Die sets, but just bought some that are the "full" version. I set them up last night so that the die was hitting the case holder, added the appropriate bushing and sized some 243 Lapua cases, but only about 75% of the neck is being sized? Is that normal? Is it possible that this is actually a neck size die and NOT a full die. The cases had already been fired, so were not new. It just doesn't make sense to me. On the top of the die, I usually drop in the bushing, then screw the top down firmly onto the bushing, then back off a quarter turn to "float" the bushing. I guess I'll have to try screwing it down all the way to check and measure the shoulder.

If you look at your Redding bushing die you will see a short section of the die body neck area between the shoulder and the bushing. This short neck area of the die body does not size the case neck. Look at the image below and the die body and the bottom of the bushing that is never sized. You can even see the the die body neck section above the shoulder is larger in diameter than the bushing and is never sized.

Below the same full image on its side showing the where the die body does not size the neck just below the bushing. My guess is this is done to add strength to the die at the neck shoulder junction. Add this area to the rounded opening of the bushing explains why the bottom section of the case neck does not get sized.

 

[Riflman]

If you look at your Redding bushing die you will sell a short section of the die body neck area between the shoulder and the bushing. This short neck area of the die body does not size the case neck. Look at the image below and the die body and the bottom of the bushing that is never sized. You can even see the the die body neck section above the shoulder is larger in diameter than the bushing and is never sized.

Below the same full image on its side showing the where the die body does not size the neck just below the bushing. My guess is this is done to add strength to the die at the neck shoulder junction. Add this area to the rounded opening of the bushing explains why the bottom section of the case neck does not get sized.

That makes perfect sense. Thanks for taking the time to post the images and explanation! I will also screw down the bushing a touch more. Cheers!

 

[Dusty Stevens]

You can take it to a machine shop and have that extra area took down a bit to lower the bushing. Warn them that it is very hard on the surface

 

[Uncle Ed]

That makes perfect sense. Thanks for taking the time to post the images and explanation! I will also screw down the bushing a touch more. Cheers!

Below is for the older people in this forum like me with chronologically gifted eyesight who sometimes have to use braille sizing dies. The area between the red lines below is not sized.

Also note the "air gap" or space along the sides of the bushing, the bushing can move from side to side or even tilt when sizing the neck. I'm saying this because with my factory rifles and their fat chamber neck area I get more runout with bushing dies.

 

[spclark]

If your brass chambers easily after being fired, you maybe don’t need to bring 100% of your necks’ length back down to a smaller ID when you re-size for the next loading.

Point of fact being sometimes all you need to do is size enough of the neck up front to hold the next bullet properly.

That ‘unsized’ portion behind what’s gripping that bullet just might be helping that round get ‘centered up’ better when it’s being chambered.

Moving brass any more than necessary - in or out - is what causes it to work-harden, maybe split.

 

[Uncle Ed]

It is also been said that the unsized lower portion of the case neck helps center the neck and bullet.

I know now that I'm older I have a fatter neck, but some people still say I'm still a little off center.

 

[D-4297]

Great photos , and excellent commentary on this issue . Explanations cover the issue accurately . Uncle Ed is dead-on about the spacing at the top of the shoulder angle . That material is left there to keep the die from fracturing should the die be improperly set-up , or some heavy-handed gorilla on the press handle . Can it be reduced so the bushing sits closer to the shoulder ? Yes . But the mfgs do it for a CYA . And Tooling Engineers never , ever take a risk with their design . Thirty-five years of re-training those geniuses to stop doing that kind of stupid crap , even after you prove to them they "mistaken" in their thinking .

 

[mikecr]

Again, there is nothing 'good' in actual FL sizing of necks. No benefit, no gain,, only bad.

 

[Ccrider]

Interesting theories about excessive neck tension. With my limited experience, they do not even come close to proving out using n133 in a 6ppc. Tighter than minimum neck tension is required.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Unless the bullet is seated in neck with the bottom of the bearing surface junction all the way down to the neck/shoulder junction, there is no need to size the neck all the way down as it there is nothing for it to "grip" below the bottom of the bearing surface, anyhow. Further, there are good reasons we generally try not to seat bullets that deep in the neck.

In terms of neck tension, I can't state with any certainty whether it increases in a linear fashion when the interference fit increases beyond ~.003", but it most definitely continues to increase. You can feel it in through the press terms of seating force, and you can see it on a chronograph.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Interesting theories about excessive neck tension. With my limited experience, they do not even come close to proving out using n133 in a 6ppc. Tighter than minimum neck tension is required.

But yet some of the top guys shooting the ppc has such light tension the bullets will fall out if they dont keep them upright

 

[Ccrider]

But yet some of the top guys shooting the ppc has such light tension the bullets will fall out if they dont keep them upright

Interesting. So what does this mean? There are no absolutes?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Interesting. So what does this mean? There are no absolutes?

Exactly. Nothing in shooting is given. Everything must be tested

 

[Barlow]

My experience with bushing dies has taught me to not use them. Barlow

 

[dcali]

Just thinking out loud, but it seems entirely likely that light neck tension is more consistent, but is simply not the only factor in consistent ignition. The magnitude of neck tension, seating depth, neck clearance, bullet weight, powder and primer choice, case volume and shape - they all should matter. If the other factors are dominating, consistent neck tension may be less important, or even detrimental to accuracy.

 

[D-4297]

It all boils down to ; What does my rifle like ? What works in BR may be junk for F-class . What works for PRC can be junk in BR . Not even going near 3 - Gun . Many F class shooters I know use Bushing Dies with great success . Others don't . Ask them why , and they will tell you , "Tried it , Didn't work" . The only absolute is there are no absolutes ! But the continued exchange of ideas and procedures is much more important than the idea , it's self . There are pages on this site regarding "Neck Tension" , or more properly , Interference Fit . And the majority have experimented to find what works best for them , in their particular barrel . The same applies with Expanders Dies . That's why this site exists , and I for one am glad it's here . To learn from those who have come before me , and become a better shooter , and Reloader for it .

 

[hogpatrol]

Harrel's bushing dies are an option.

You can take it to a machine shop and have that extra area took down a bit to lower the bushing. Warn them that it is very hard on the surface

I did that with a 22 BR die to get the entire neck resized and yes, carbide for sure.