Brass Forming Newbie

[bobcat1506]

So I’ve got this unshakable desire to acquire a CZ 527 in 221 Fireball as a lightweight varmint rifle. I have literally thousands of pieces of once fired 223 brass in my basement and I’ve heard bad things about the production 221 brass so I’ve also convinced myself that I’m going to form my own brass. Problem is I’ve never formed brass or turned necks, and the information I’m finding on the net is conflicting. Some say to neck turn, others say you don’t need to if you form using commercial brass like RP, Win, or FC. Some say I need a form/trim die set, others say just remove the guts from the FL sizing die. Can anyone clear up the confusion? If I do need to neck turn, how do I know by how much (especially with a factory chamber)? Do I neck turn once, or after each firing?

 

[JRS]

Use the available 221 brass forming from 223 brass is a PITA ???

 

[P1ZombieKiller]

Use the available 221 brass forming from 223 brass is a PITA ???

+1

Remington brass is not that bad (at least in my gun). Most certianly shoots 1 minute of groundhog!!!!

 

[bigedp51]

Better yet get the CZ 527 in .223 and use the brass and sizing dies you already have. You can download the .223 to .221 velocities and pretend the case is smaller.

 

[gotcha]

great idea on Bigeds part. You get two guns for your money! The .221 is a great little cartridge no doubt. But once you've experienced the diminished wind drift of the .223 I'll bet you'll like its velocity capability & extended range better. Not to mention the ability to stabilize 62 grn bullets w/ the standard 12 twst BBL & extra powder capacity. If I had your supply of .223 brass I wouldn't hesitate to opt for .223 JMHO

 

[bobcat1506]

Thanks guys. I've got several 223's for eradicating PDs and 6mm's for bucking the wind. I’m looking for a small centerfire that I can shoot all day without excessive barrel heat. I’ve looked at the 20 VT but keep gravitating back to the FB. I'll consider purchasing brass but I'm still interested in learning and understanding the process. Any reliable resources you can recommend?

 

[Webster]

I looked at the Hodgden reloading data online. Why not try minimum loads using the 223? Just because it's a 223 doesn't mean you have to shoot around 3300 FPS. The minimum loads for a 223 will give you about 2800-2900 FPS. Light recoil. Less powder less heat. I would try the light loads in a 223 that you already have and see how you like it before putting over $1000 in a rifle and scope.

 

[Steve Blair]

Better yet get the CZ 527 in .223 and use the brass and sizing dies you already have. You can download the .223 to .221 velocities and pretend the case is smaller.

[br]
I like Ed's idea much better than what I've seen several shooters try: overloading the crap out of .223 and pretend it's a .22-250. When the inevitable blowout occurs, it makes interesting case heads. I saw one that looked like it would seat a LR primer. [br]
BTW, Midway has Remington .221 Fireball in stock. I would just buy some and save a lot of grief. 200 would probably last a very long time if my .222 cases are any indication.

 

[drstrange]

Nosler is now making 221 fireball brass, people are still waiting for it to arrive.

http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21217&highlight=nosler

Here is a link on Saubier.com on how to go from 223 to 20VT, the steps would be pretty close.
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21012&highlight=LC+fireball+make

and another one
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9938

I have some of Adam's brass for the 20VT, awesome stuff.

Mike

 

[bozo699]

Nosler is now making 221 fireball brass, people are still waiting for it to arrive.

http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21217&highlight=nosler

Here is a link on Saubier.com on how to go from 223 to 20VT, the steps would be pretty close.
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21012&highlight=LC+fireball+make

and another one
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9938

I have some of Adam's brass for the 20VT, awesome stuff.

Mike

Fellas,
You all surprise me, bobcat1506 wants to know how to form brass not cartridge suggestions, I have always wanted a custom 221 fb, I have about 10000 once fired lc .223 brass, so I may try this myself If I could get my hornet to shoot accurately I wouldn't consider the .221 fb I love the low report of the hornet so if I reduced loads in the fb I should have a low report accurate little pack around rifle, I too could easily buy .221 brass but where would the fun be in that, thanks for the good link Mike, I actually joined that forum three years ago and just forgot I ever did, I rarely stray from here but I took a chance and typed in my username and password and by george there I was. Best of luck to ya bobcat1506 if you go down this path, post your results, Oh by the way I can't give you much info on this cartridge for brass forming but what forming I have done on other cartridges this looks like good info to me.
Wayne.

 

[polebilly]

Hi Bobcat. Call me crazy but I've always enjoyed remaking brass from a parent case. Mostly I've done this to create wildcat cartridges. Neil Jones used to make a die and shoulder bushing set to move the shoulder back in steps. I have one and it works great, very few lost cases if done right. You would very likely need to turn the necks if going from .223 to.221 fireball. This should be a one time process, some trial and error. I know a lot of people find reloading boring and repeditive and it can be if you don't mix it up with something new once in a while.

 

[bobcat1506]

I'll probably just buy the brass rather than form it. I was hoping forming from 223 Rem was as simple as size, trim, and load. I don't want to mess around with forming if I have to neck turn, especially if it involves trial and error.

I've shot reduced Blue Dot loads which I liked, but they worry me as the pressure spikes so quickly. I want a light gun that shoots like the Blue Dot loads without the worry. True, I could shoot reduced 223 loads but that also means reduced velocity. I'm attracted to the FB because 15-16 grains of Lil'Gun will get the job done vs a minimum load of 23-27 grains in the 223. It seems like it will shoot cooler and that's really what I'm after.

 

[wapiti25]

I have made 221 and short 221 cases from 223. I made a die that has a long forming angle (12 degrees) and sizes to about .270". Then I used a 222 seater die that was cut short. The first thing I did was to anneal the cases down to where the new shoulder will be. The intermediate die eliminated the folds that happen sometimes with 222 and 221 fl dies. I do turn the necks as my reamer cuts a .250 neck. I anneal again after the forming because of the brass working and you don't want to have split necks on the the first firing. Good luck

 

[LitLBoy]

Bobcat
I bought the redding 3 die set. All you have to do is use the body die to form the case (from .223). Trim the necks to length, and yes you will have to turn the necks, but if you can trim to length you can turn necks.
Big advantage is you can make the cases fit the chamber. I just built a .221 FB with a Lilja 3 grove, 12 twist barrel. You wouldn't believe the last two groups I shot if you saw them. 16.2 gr. 300MP fed. 205M 40 gr. V-max or Serria BK OAL 1.975
LitLBoy

 

[Dan877]

I bought a rifle in 222 Rem. and, since I had many thousands of rounds of .223 brass, I decided I wanted to try forming some 222 brass from it. I know 222 brass is pretty easy to come by, in fact the guy from whom I bought the rifle threw in 200 rounds of new brass, but I wanted to do it, like you, mostly just to see what is involved in forming brass. It turned out to not be that big of a deal.

I used all L-C once fired brass. I lost maybe 10% due to neck folds, which I'm sure I could have prevented if I had annealed the cases below the 223 shoulder first, but that's all part of the learning curve. The worst part was trimming to length. I was using a Wilson trimmer and it was a real chore until I made a power-drive adapter and used my cordless drill to run the trimmer.

Everything I read said I'd have to turn the necks, so I set my neck turner to just skim a factory 222 case neck and then tried to turn the necks; but the cutter did not touch the neck at all on a single one of my newly made cases. So apparently neck turning isn't always required, though neck wall thickness certainly needs to be checked.

I wound up making 200 rounds of brass. By then it had pretty much stopped being fun. Still, it was a good learning experience.

 

[bobcat1506]

Thanks all for all the great info. I was reading this article http://www.6mmbr.com/neckturningbasics.html which explains to first full length size the brass, then to use an expander die before turning the necks. Maybe I didn’t read closely enough, but I don’t understand the point of the expander die if the brass has already been FL sized. Does this mean one should remove the expander ball from the FL sizing die? If not, what’s the point of the expander die?

 

[P1ZombieKiller]

You need to "EXPAND" the case to .223 so at your mandrel of .2225 will slide inside the case so you can turn the neck.

 

[pwdrbrn]

Like Dan877 said, not all brass needs to be turned. Don't know how big cz's chambers are, but my rem and sav 222 chambers were big enough that didn't have to turn reformed 223 necks. Also n.m. 308 to 22-250 in rem chamber was ok w/no turn. 223 to 17 fb did require turning, but that's a lot bigger step down. Hey, what else ya gonna do when it's snowin' and 15* out? Good luck, Tom.