Redding die question... “small base” application?

[TrekUS]

I purchased a Redding die “set” as I was building my equipment list, but shifted course to use an in-line Wilson / arbor press for seating - and so I ordered a separate FL “S” sizing die... or so I thought. Rookie (me) didn’t understand that I actually purchased a “small base” FL sizing die.

I’m loading into an PRS bolt rifle (Proof and Bartlein barrels)... would I be better to set the small base die aside (100 pieces sized so far)... since this die “over constricts” the brass for gas guns and use the “match” FL sizing die from the set? Thoughts/opinions welcomed!

 

[jepp2]

would I be better to set the small base die aside

There are lots of folks that swear by their small base dies. I'm not one of them. My suggestion would be don't use it unless you find you need it. I have 1 rifle (custom bolt action) I found it necessary to use a small base die with. Everything else I use standard dies. Why work the brass more than you need to?

 

[JEFFPPC]

I use lots of small base dies both the Redding and custom. I agree with jepp2 about not using them if not needed. I am guessing in your game you might be loading hot so you will end up using it. I doubt it was a wasted purchase.

 

[Preacher]

They work great when your normal die will not size them any more because of running loads on the hot side..

 

[dnellans]

Just track and shoot them for practice in the first reload or two and they'll be back to close to chamber size. Brass expands to your chamber over X firing, they might be small based now, but they' won't be soon...

 

[Twicepop]

When I first started loading 223s, I purchased a RCBS S/B die set because I had a large quantity of range brass of unknown pedigree. I was using this to shoot in a Mini-14 that I had at the time and wanted to make sure that each round would chamber. The Mini-14 is gone (thank goodness) and I have since switched to a Forster die set and it sizes my brass enough to be shot in both bolt guns and AR style rifles so the S/B set isn't needed much any longer.

 

[TrekUS]

Thanks for the help and the guidance… Well received! I made the switch over to the match day and will retain the small bass die. Using the match die, I’ve reset the bump to .002 and did a plunk test... both dropped into my soon to be F-TR barrel... but you could notice a little wiggle with the small base die... I’ll start with the “match” die and see how we make out (top is SB, and bottom is Match)... assistance is appreciated!

 

[rsmithsr50]

more like swear at small base dies.
unless you are :
swapping brass between 2 rifles
have an undersized chamber,
there is little need for a sb die.

get a std or custom bushing die and do not look back.

There are lots of folks that swear by their small base dies. I'm not one of them. My suggestion would be don't use it unless you find you need it. I have 1 rifle (custom bolt action) I found it necessary to use a small base die with. Everything else I use standard dies. Why work the brass more than you need to?

 

[Ccrider]

What I have found is that if your full length die fits your chamber, you never need a small base die. As an added bonus, you don’t have to trim your brass as much.

 

[INTJ]

I know a very competitive LR BR shooter/gunsmith that small bases every third firing. He is very hard to beat, and the small base sized brass shoots as well as the normal. I have seen the same thing myself in my rifles.

I would like to think that a custom die eliminates the need for small base sizing, but there doesn't seem to be any accuracy downside to small basing.

 

[Liven The Dream]

Always love these SB post !
Speer #8 Reloading Manual covers this Best.

Why would a Company Make AR Die Set SB .

I am a old Service Rifle Shooter 2500 3000 Rounds a Year , M1A AR-14 with Joe ??
SB Dies always Worked ... Saw Shooters have lots of Trouble STD .

 

[fyrewall]

I like to shoot cheap thus large buys of 1X fired .223 brass.

Sometimes I load selected amounts of this brass in my .20 P. During my first firing of some 1X fired Winchester .223 brass that was F/L sized using a .223 Redding bushing die having a .226 bushing to make .20P's; the case would not extract, the bolt opened and the tough Ruger M77 MKII extractor tore the rim off the brass. After that all 1X fired brass gets SB resized one time for my AR or .20P. Small Base dies should resize brass to factory specs. Possibly, brass spring back of 1X cases fired in other chambers, when using standard F/L dies results in out of spec. (fat) cases, that upon firing expand enough making extraction sticky or needing to be shoved out by a cleaning rod. In any event, no more stuck cases upon a 1X sizing using SB dies.

Normally, I use high quality new Lake City brass in the .20P and skip using SB dies. If it is strange 1X fired brass it gets SB sized one time.

Edit: Made changes regarding degree of expansion vs. standard F/L dies & SB dies

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Sb dies are very necessary if youre a competitive shooter or want to minimize gun disturbance in the bags. Everybody needs one.

 

[fyrewall]

For my intended .223 project I plan to skip buying a regular body die and use my existing .223 SB die.

Where can I get a .22-.250 SB die?

 

[Rsadams]

If you don't need them , you don't need them... But in the AR platform I use small base dies everytime because I don't want problems....

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I have been using Redding Type S, small base bushing dies for my match ammo since I started in F-class (2006). With no scientific basis or data, I tend to believe that a small base die retards the inevitable cartridge-killing prime pocket expansion. I never understood why people think a small base die "overworks" the brass. That never made sense to me. If your goal is to have the case retain its dimensions, the SB die is the way to go.

I easily get 8 loads out of my brass with a pretty stout load in .308 Winchester. Small or large primer, makes no difference; I still get at least 8 loads.

 

[Ccrider]

Sb dies are very necessary if youre a competitive shooter or want to minimize gun disturbance in the bags. Everybody needs one.

Hey @Dusty Stevens,
Will you expand on this. Do you use small base dies with your custom dies. If so when and why. I thought the purpose of a custom full length die is to size at the base adequately to avoid bolt click or pressure while also properly sizing the shoulder. If this is so, what makes the small base die necessary?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Hey @Dusty Stevens,
Will you expand on this. Do you use small base dies with your custom dies. If so when and why. I thought the purpose of a custom full length die is to size at the base adequately to avoid bolt click or pressure while also properly sizing the shoulder. If this is so, what makes the small base die necessary?

Yes custom dies do size well at the base- if you set em up that way. After a few firings the brass doesnt size as well and needs a little extra push.

 

[Uncle Ed]

I purchased a Redding die “set” as I was building my equipment list, but shifted course to use an in-line Wilson / arbor press for seating - and so I ordered a separate FL “S” sizing die... or so I thought. Rookie (me) didn’t understand that I actually purchased a “small base” FL sizing die.

I’m loading into an PRS bolt rifle (Proof and Bartlein barrels)... would I be better to set the small base die aside (100 pieces sized so far)... since this die “over constricts” the brass for gas guns and use the “match” FL sizing die from the set? Thoughts/opinions welcomed!

Chambers dies, and cases vary in size meaning in headspace length and base diameter. Example I have a Lee full length .223 die that will size the case diameter smaller than my RCBS .223 small base die.

Measure a fired case at three points along the case body and then measure a resized case at the same points. How much is the die reducing the case body diameter.

As an example, a case fired in a semi-auto should be .003 to .005 smaller in diameter than its fired diameter. This allows the case to spring back from the chamber walls and extract reliably.

Below three types of Forster .308 dies, "BUT" remember chambers and dies have a plus and minus manufacturing tolerance. Also, the cases vary in hardness between manufacturers and brass expansion and spring back can vary.

Below CatShooter did a Rockwell hardness test here on .223/5.56 brass.

Below the case base diameter can vary .008 and the chamber diameter can vary .002 by SAAMI standards.

Below a Dillon case gauge with a "FIRED" Lake City 7.62 case in the gauge. And the body diameter is stoping the case from dropping all the way into the gauge.

Below the same "FIRED" case in a JP Enterprise case gauge and this gauge is closer to SAAMI minimum diameter. And if my resized cases drop all the way into this gauge they will chamber in any rifle chamber. I use a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge to measure shoulder bump and the JP Enterprise gauge to check body diameter or plop test.

Bottom line, you will not know how much smaller in diameter "YOUR" resizing die is making your cases. And you will need to measure a fired and resized case to see how much the case is reduced in diameter.

 

[fyrewall]

Measuring a random piece of FC 18 .223 free range brass the measurement at .300 up from the cartridge base was .373 diameter after sizing with a standard RCBS F/L die.

After sizing the same piece of brass with a Redding SB body die the measurement taken at the same spot was .372.

Measuring RWS reformed .223 to .20P brass at .300 up from base, the diameter was .372. This brass was 1st SB sized with a Redding SB die, then fired about 7 times and sized after each firing with a Redding F/L bushing die having a .226 bushing - good brass.

For the .20 P: Some once fired Winchester cases F/L sized with the Redding .223 bushing die with a .226 bushing stuck, I then started using a SB Redding body die for initial sizing and no more stuck cases.

I try to find new 5.56 Lake City brass for the .20P - 1st rate brass at really good prices. I can develop real zippy accurate loads using LC brass and it lasts for many cycles.

No plans to buy a .223 Redding body die for the ongoing bolt gun .223 project - I will just use my existing Redding SB body die.

Every piece of my free range 1x fired brass is SB sized.


No - I would not set aside your SB sized brass