Redding Competition seating die issue / question (not very accurate?)

[mjgillen]

Hello all,

Scratching my head on this one. Bought a new set of Redding Competition dies - both the neck sizing and the seating. Am trying to work up a load per Tony Boyer's book BORA so I start by finding my Jamb length. I think I got it. Set my seating die. Measure with my Davidson seating depth checker attached to my Mitutoyu digital calipers. Reads 2.7020. I leave the die set.

So now I'm loading three shells at a time. They are cleaned. I pass three through the neck sizer die. I clean the inside with a brush, clean the primer pocket, prime the three, carefully put in 24.2gr Varget, put a Berger 73gr bullet on top, put it in the seating die. I do this for a total of 9 cases, only changing the measure of Varget. I measure the cases and they are all over the place from 2.7040 - 2.7130 which is a 9 thou spread. So how the heck am I supposed to find my sweet spot when the dies cannot consistently seat a bullet? Am I doing something wrong?

I measured a couple dozen previously loaded cases which were loaded with a $30 Hornady die set and they were only off by 2 thou.

If you guy don't come up with a good answer I'll just have to give Redding a call.

BTW, this is in my brand new Redding T7 Turret press too.

Thanks,
Michael

 

[BRU15]

Are these the first rounds you've loaded on the new press? So you're using brand new dies and a brand new press?

Can you load some rounds using the new dies on your old press? At least then you could either rule out the new dies or rule the new press.

Also, How many firings are on the brass? Work hardening can cause seating issues.

 

[mjgillen]

Thanks for the quick reply. Brass is 4x fired in my bolt gun. The previous rounds I measured were 3x fired. I don't have a lot of bench space so I removed my old single stage rock chucker and replaced it with the Redding T7 turret. All psyched up to REALLY do some precision loading and now I'm disappointed. I know it will all work out... just wish it worked the first time.

Michael

 

[Lapua40X]

... I measure the cases and they are all over the place .....

I'm a little confused. Are you measuring the "cases" and finding inaccuracies or are you measuring the cartridges?

... I removed my old single stage rock chucker and replaced it with the Redding T7 turret.

In my experience turret presses are inherently inaccurate (always a bit of slop somewhere)
I'd go back to the rock chucker and see if it helps.

 

[FeMan]

A couple of thoughts. First on the presses. I dont have either but i believe the Rockchucker has a stop built into the handle that limits the ram upstroke. That is a huge benefit in bullet seating and tends to yield much more consistent seating depths than a press where the ram breaks over at the top of the stroke. Does the T7 have a stop as well? In my experience you can get about double the variance comparing the two for seating.

The other thought is neck tension and seating stem. Your new dies likely leave the neck ID slightly different then the old ones. That change and/or a seating stem that doesnt match the dullet node profile well and you will get more variance.

 

[mjgillen]

measuring the cartridge with the Davidson with has a holder for the base of the case and the other end / attachment measures at the bullet ogive. I am being very careful, not forcing stuff, not pushing too hard when I measure. I'm just expecting an accurate die. Why is there a micrometer if it don't work? I also installed the "VLD" seating stem which is supposed to handle long skinny ogives.

The turret seems really solid. However I will try the die in my rock chucker to see the problem follows the die.

In a previous post a week or so ago I wrote about the searing die "shaving" a bit off the side of the bullet. I'm still seeing weird scraping marks on the side of the bullet, all the way around, near the base where it meets the case mouth. About the last 1/4" or so are scraped like the bullet is too fat for the die. Its a .223 Rem caliber and yes the dies say .223 on them.

Michael

 

[TikkaSporter]

Are you measuring base-to-ogive or base-to-tip? Is this a compressed load (bullet seating into the powder column)?

I get pretty good results with my T-7 Press, including low TIR (runout). I've seen a lot of variation between the tip measurements on Berger bullets and I've seen issues with compressed loads if the powder isn't settled and sitting level in the case.

 

[mjgillen]

"A couple of thoughts. First on the presses. I dont have either but i believe the Rockchucker has a stop built into the handle that limits the ram upstroke. That is a huge benefit in bullet seating and tends to yield much more consistent seating depths than a press where the ram breaks over at the top of the stroke. Does the T7 have a stop as well? In my experience you can get about double the variance comparing the two for seating."

I followed the instructions for the T7 and the dies which says to ensure that the top of the ram does NOT touch the bottom of the die. You're supposed to raise the ram, screw down the die, then back off so there is clearance. I backed off almost a full turn. There is plenty of clearance. I'm pretty sure its setup correctly.

"The other thought is neck tension and seating stem. Your new dies likely leave the neck ID slightly different then the old ones. That change and/or a seating stem that doesnt match the dullet node profile well and you will get more variance."

I thought about neck tension however I am not sure how this could have an effect. The 4x fired brass is being sized in the new Redding Competition Bushing Neck Sizing die. I would think they would work together very well. And I am not sure or understand how that could effect seating consistency. But I'm kind of new at this...

 

[mjgillen]

Are you measuring base-to-ogive or base-to-tip? Is this a compressed load (bullet seating into the powder column)?

I get pretty good results with my T-7 Press, including low TIR (runout). I've seen a lot of variation between the tip measurements on Berger bullets and I've seen issues with compressed loads if the powder isn't settled and sitting level in the case.

Base to ogive. I tried base to tip - too much variation. I really like the Davidson, its a good tool.
Not a compressed load. I've loaded 24.2gr in a couple hundred bullets with not issues and measure seating depth variation was .002 (two thou) so its not a compressed load.

Thanks for all the ideas / replies - keep them coming!

 

[Hondo]

Are you sure of your measurements
2.130 -2.040= 90 thousands.

 

[Regnar]

I have the same press and dies ( i use an arbor press now) and never had an issue with it or the die producing inconcistant rounds, after thousands and thousands of them.

My guess and thats all it is, is that its operator error. i know I had issues like that when I started, not being able to be concistant.

One posibilty, did you clean your die?

 

[CH Luke]

Using the same press and die with pre-sorted BTO Berger bullets (185 Juggs, 200 Hybrid and 299-20x) to produce a loaded max variance of .001" BTO with some care very consistently.
By care I mean I pre-sort the bullets to .0005" groups and set the die micrometer to produce .0005 to .001" longer than Target length. The range I typically get with a consistent feel with the ram is from .0005 short to .001" long.
Point being the equipment can do the job. Sort through the feedback you get focusing on what else could be wrong.

 

[mjgillen]

I'll check my math...

Yes I cleaned the dies before installing them.

Could be my error... I'll re-think it...

I don't sort brass nor bullets. I don't trim and I don't turn.

I reload...

 

[Brians356]

You didn't mention the cartridge, so a 77-grain bullet could be any weight class. Would it happen to be 22-cal and a VLD? And could it be bottoming the bullet tips in the seater stem? That would give inconsistent seating depths, as measured at the ogives with a comparator, and you'd need a VLD stem for the die. If it's 6mm or larger ... never mind!
-

 

[bsbxl]

I have a Forster micrometer seating die, so not the same as your Redding. I do a two step seating procedure. First I seat the bullet just a little bit long. Then I measure it with a comparator (compared to a dummy round I made with CBTO to jam). Finally I seat the bullet to correct CBTO according to the measurement with the comparator, usually just a few thousands extra. That is were I find the micrometer adjustment comming in very handy. Bsbxl.

 

[Nude nut]

I cant see it that press is the issue as I use the same seater dies on my old lee turret press and thats as sloppy as a back street hooker and can seat to my target measurement with consistant lever pressure.

Cheers Trev.

 

[Shynloco]

Michael,
Two things. First check the runout of your casings AFTER they've been fired in your rifle. Use that as a basis for the next step. BTW, what tools are your using to check your runout? That matters BIG time.

Secondly, may I suggest you "FLOAT" your dies by putting an "O" ring between the Die lock nut and the press. You can find "O" rings of varying sizes at your local hardware store in the plumbing section. Run the "O" ring up the threads and then hand tighten the Die in the press so the Die FLOATS. Tightening it with a wrench will only squash the "O" ring and will not allow the Die to float. You should be able to slightly "rock" the Die from side the side when you hand tighten the Die. Some folks even put "O" rings between the Decapping Rod nut and the Die so that the Decapping Rod also floats to counter the Expander Ball problem. That process has provided a better runout for me using a 21st Century Concentricity Guage, more accurate than even the Sinclair guage. And forget a Hornady Gauge if that's what you are using...useless and inaccurate.

Lastly, remember that the EXPANDER BALL (in the FL and Neck Die) is the culprit for poor runout, no matter who makes the Die. And I use Wilson Seater Dies in all my rifles for better runout of a loaded cartridge. And I have found I get best runout when I lightly turn all new brass, no matter the manufacturer. I just bought a bunch of brand new Lapua .260 Remington brass and lightly tuned it before ever firing it. Runout was anywhere from .01 - .02 untouched. Turning it lightly got it down to .005 for almost every piece.

Alex

 

[Texas10]

I get almost exactly that much spread when I accidentally don't place the brass into the shell holder properly. I set it into the chamfer instead of the slot (basically setting it on top of the shell holder instead of into the slot) Drove me crazy until I discovered my error. Easy to do.

 

['Freak]

Did you first run the fired cases up into the body die to give ‘em all a consistent head to shoulder datum dimension and to give ‘em all a consistent fit up into the sliding sleeves of both the Comp. bushing neck size and bullet seater dies ...?

 

[GordoNV]

I had a similar problem with a brand new Redding seating die for my 6.5 Creedmoor.

As it turned out, inserting a partially seated bullet/shell into the die by hand resulted in a stuck cartridge.

What was happening with mine was that the bullet guide part was extremely tight and would work only on a perfect bullet. The one I was trying to seat had a scratch on it that kept me from inserting it into the guide by hand, so when I tried to seat a bullet, it would hang up in the guide sleeve, causing it to seat deeper. After I polished the scratch away, it seated just fine.

I wound up re-polishing the bullet guide sleeve inside the die, and that fixed it...unless the bullet is scratched or damaged.

Try taking the die apart and try hand inserting a bullet into the guide sleeve by hand (You have to do it from the top with the seating plunger removed), and also try fitting the shell. See if you have a hang up somewhere like I did.

Good luck! -Gordo

Hello all,

Scratching my head on this one. Bought a new set of Redding Competition dies - both the neck sizing and the seating. Am trying to work up a load per Tony Boyer's book BORA so I start by finding my Jamb length. I think I got it. Set my seating die. Measure with my Davidson seating depth checker attached to my Mitutoyu digital calipers. Reads 2.7020. I leave the die set.

So now I'm loading three shells at a time. They are cleaned. I pass three through the neck sizer die. I clean the inside with a brush, clean the primer pocket, prime the three, carefully put in 24.2gr Varget, put a Berger 73gr bullet on top, put it in the seating die. I do this for a total of 9 cases, only changing the measure of Varget. I measure the cases and they are all over the place from 2.7040 - 2.7130 which is a 9 thou spread. So how the heck am I supposed to find my sweet spot when the dies cannot consistently seat a bullet? Am I doing something wrong?

I measured a couple dozen previously loaded cases which were loaded with a $30 Hornady die set and they were only off by 2 thou.

If you guy don't come up with a good answer I'll just have to give Redding a call.

BTW, this is in my brand new Redding T7 Turret press too.

Thanks,
Michael