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Recommendation on short range FTR barrel specs (308Win)?

)Stephan

Dear all,

I have an old blueprinted Rem700 with a McMillan stock, Jewell trigger and a 1:12“ barrel etc. Sadly the barrel life seems to be near it‘s end and that‘s why I am looking for something new - of course with the goal to be as competitive as possible.

My biggest concern is that I would like to „get it right“ right away, meaning that if I order a new barrel, I would like it to be specifically and exclusively designed for short range FTR @ 300m (Actually over here we are not using any wind flags, so that makes things even more complicated. Also I will never go to longer distances).


If you had to design a barrel, what would it be and what would be your favourite bullet (non-custom because not available over here)?

I was thinking of something like a 24“ heavy contour 1:19 twist non-freebore barrel with the goal to use bullets around 100grs using N133, but I am a little worried if there might be some flaws with this idea..
I actually have some 100grs Lapua HPCE bullets already but I have some issues seating them. That‘s why the new G580 100grs bullet seems very interesting to me (produced in Europe and therefore easily accessible for me).

Of course there would be the alternative to build a .223 because I am really only looking at 300m - but that would mean to build a whole new rifle instead of just changing a barrel.

Any tipps and recommendations are highly appreciated!

TY
Stephan
 

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I think you are handicapping yourself with the light bullet idea. With no flags and light bullets, you are going to get "out engineered" most of the time. The old 168 Sierra reigned supreme for a long time in 300 meter competition. There are some variants of that bullet that might put perform the old timer but new is not always better.
 
Must be close to twenty years ago that I decided to build a dedicated 300m "F" class rifle, specifically to win a particular match. I was determined to NOT use a 6BR, so I built a 308. I went with a 14 twist barrel, 1 1/4 straight, 26 inches long. Chose to go with the bullet made for 300m, the 168 Sierra. I throated the barrel to allow the 168 to be seated just ahead of the neck/shoulder juncture. The range the match was held at had a couple of flags but had a lot of sagebrush and plenty of mirage, so conditions were readable. The rifle worked OK. In the 75-shot match, I shot 750, with a decent x count. I haven't fired that rifle for years but have plans for it next year. It also shoots very well with the 150 Sierra and the 167 Lapua Scenar. WH
 
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Thank you very much!
Somehow I am not quite catched by the idea to use a 168SMK. If I recollect correctly, the bullet has some issues at 1000yds, but up to 600yds should be fine. Also 155s (and 168TMK and 175s…) seem to be considered quite well for 1000yds.

All this makes me think a 168grn bullet @ 300m is some kind of overkill.
Also I shoot a 6BR @300 with 105grs Scenar and it performs really well. As an alternative, the 30BR with 115grs(ish) bullets seem to be a good choice.

Based on that idea, should a 308 with something around 115grn not outperform the heavyer bullets by far? (Speed over weight?)

Thank you ✌️
 
You can't outrun the wind. 300 meters is just far enough that some bullet weight doesn't hurt. Once you get used to the behavior of a given bullet in the wind, you can do OK with it. Using a bullet which is too wind sensitive will handicap you though. In my 300m rifle, the 150's actually shot a little better (a tenth of an inch better at 300), in calm conditions, but I shot better scores, out to 600, with the 168. The 155 Palma didn't shoot as well. WH
 
)Stephan said:
overkill.
Click to expand...
How do you mean overkill?

On 'weight vs speed'. It's not the weight that's key, it's the ballistic coefficient. For the same caliber, with more material, the bullet can be made with a higher BC; but not all bullets of the same weight will have the same BC.

A good way to explore which bullet would give you the best performance [i.e., accuracy and resistance to wind effects] would be to get estimated velocities of match grade bullets from reloading tables, then use a ballistic calculator to show the resistance of wind. You could use the ballistic calculator to see how much faster the lighter bullets would have to go to beat the wind resistance of the heavier ones.
 
My everyday 300 yard FTR class rifle is an old Paramount (RPS Quadlock predecessor) 'TR' (ie Fullbore/Palma sling shooting) rifle with a standard 13-twist Bartlein standard Palma profile barrel cropped at 28-inches. I had the barrel blank spare having bought it originally for a sling-shooting friend, so utilised it rather than a heavier/faster twist tube.

With a 'minimum-SAAMI' chamber throated slightly longer than standard normal 308 Win, it shoots the old original 155gn SMK very well indeed, likewise the 150gn Berger BT Flat-base match; 168 and 175 SMKs - all bullets I had spare from yonks back allied to all the old but suitable burn rate powders I have on hand.
 
You want a 29"+ barrel in 1:8 twist and you want nothing lighter than 185gr Berger Juggernaut or heavier bullet.

Build one 308Win TR rifle and you can use it for mid course or full couse. For 300m a bolt gun that can shoot heavy/long ELD/VLD 5.56/223 is a better way to go.

I had to shoot 155gr. bullets growing up doing Palma and that ruined me for the rest of my life against 150gr. bullets. To be honest until the advent of solid copper bullets I thought it was down right stupid to put a 150gr. bullet or lighter into 308Win, 30-06 Springfield, 300Win Mag etc.....

The only 30Cal routinely used in competition that should have anything lighter than a 168gr. bullet is the 30BR but you can not use that in F TR so that is not up for consideration.

Even a button rifled barrel in 308Win is usually good for at leat 5000 rounds. If it is a CHF barrel your looking at 20,000 rounds of accurate life in 308Win. So you want the most consistently accurate barrel you can source and you want the best gunsmith you can get to do the rebarreling because if you get a good one you and it will be together for a long long long long time!

Now when I did Palma your only choice was 308Win, 155gr. bullet and iron sights. Most of us ran tighter bore and grove diemensions than is the norm for CIP and SAAMI. I would plan on 29-31" barrel. I would get a cut rifled barrel with a grove diameter around .3075. I would get a US FTR Match 308 Chamber reamer. I like 1:8 twist but even 1:10 would work well. I think that a 5R rifling design would be my first choice but polygonal can work well too but you do not see it often in match quality barrel usually it is on CHF barrels.

If I knew I was only going to use a TR rifle for 300m I would strongly consider setting up for 223/556 since you would have no issues running long heavy ELD bullets with longer than magazine friendly COAL since you do not need to worry about them feeding from a magazine.

In the USA I have never seen anyone in F TR use 1:19 twist or shoot really light weight bullets and win! This is not 30BR country when talking about F TR! As soon as people could move away from 155gr bullets in Palma they did so in mass!A world class Olympic Sprinters appeared slow compared to how quickly people fled from anything lighter than 168gr in 308Win! Next big leap across the board for anyone using 308Win in any sort of competition was 172gr.-175gr., then the next big game changer in a major way was the 185gr. Juggernaut.

The idea of too much twist on a bullet is going the way of the idea that petrolem in the Earth comes from decomposing plants and dinosuars as relics of the past. Just like Peak Oil Theory is disappearing as peoples ignorance catches up with hard sceince! If you limit yourself to some arcane idea on twist you will only limit your options down the road and paint yourself into a corner. There are times when you know that you will never need to go with a longer or heavier bullet like the 30BR but F TR is not such a case.

I am not sure why anyone would build a competition rifle with a 24" barrel unless they have to climb up a mountain with it. Why limit yourself in that way. You always want as much barrel as the rules will allow. Often having to go shorter or lighter in profile to stay with in the rules where length or weight limits are impossed. I can not go longer than 26" for my Silhouette Rifle and I have weight limit in some classes so barrel length vs profile and rate of taper can all come into play. It comes down to if the velocity gains and sability from longer barrel are worth giving up stifness from heavier profile.

I have shot a lot of 308Win in my lifetime I own 2 rifles in 308 Win to this day. I have used it in NRA High Power back when cars still had carburators and manual chokes, silhouettee, Palma, F TR and for hunting. I grew up with the M24 being a regular sight.

Here goes a European Champion F-TR shooters take on the 308 Win. https://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/gunweek0104/
 
mauser284 said:
You want a 29"+ barrel in 1:8 twist and you want nothing lighter than 185gr Berger Juggernaut or heavier bullet.

Build one 308Win TR rifle and you can use it for mid course or full couse. For 300m a bolt gun that can shoot heavy/long ELD/VLD 5.56/223 is a better way to go.

I had to shoot 155gr. bullets growing up doing Palma and that ruined me for the rest of my life against 150gr. bullets. To be honest until the advent of solid copper bullets I thought it was down right stupid to put a 150gr. bullet or lighter into 308Win, 30-06 Springfield, 300Win Mag etc.....

The only 30Cal routinely used in competition that should have anything lighter than a 168gr. bullet is the 30BR but you can not use that in F TR so that is not up for consideration.

Even a button rifled barrel in 308Win is usually good for at leat 5000 rounds. If it is a CHF barrel your looking at 20,000 rounds of accurate life in 308Win. So you want the most consistently accurate barrel you can source and you want the best gunsmith you can get to do the rebarreling because if you get a good one you and it will be together for a long long long long time!

Now when I did Palma your only choice was 308Win, 155gr. bullet and iron sights. Most of us ran tighter bore and grove diemensions than is the norm for CIP and SAAMI. I would plan on 29-31" barrel. I would get a cut rifled barrel with a grove diameter around .3075. I would get a US FTR Match 308 Chamber reamer. I like 1:8 twist but even 1:10 would work well. I think that a 5R rifling design would be my first choice but polygonal can work well too but you do not see it often in match quality barrel usually it is on CHF barrels.

If I knew I was only going to use a TR rifle for 300m I would strongly consider setting up for 223/556 since you would have no issues running long heavy ELD bullets with longer than magazine friendly COAL since you do not need to worry about them feeding from a magazine.

In the USA I have never seen anyone in F TR use 1:19 twist or shoot really light weight bullets and win! This is not 30BR country when talking about F TR! As soon as people could move away from 155gr bullets in Palma they did so in mass!A world class Olympic Sprinters appeared slow compared to how quickly people fled from anything lighter than 168gr in 308Win! Next big leap across the board for anyone using 308Win in any sort of competition was 172gr.-175gr., then the next big game changer in a major way was the 185gr. Juggernaut.

The idea of too much twist on a bullet is going the way of the idea that petrolem in the Earth comes from decomposing plants and dinosuars as relics of the past. Just like Peak Oil Theory is disappearing as peoples ignorance catches up with hard sceince! If you limit yourself to some arcane idea on twist you will only limit your options down the road and paint yourself into a corner. There are times when you know that you will never need to go with a longer or heavier bullet like the 30BR but F TR is not such a case.

I am not sure why anyone would build a competition rifle with a 24" barrel unless they have to climb up a mountain with it. Why limit yourself in that way. You always want as much barrel as the rules will allow. Often having to go shorter or lighter in profile to stay with in the rules where length or weight limits are impossed. I can not go longer than 26" for my Silhouette Rifle and I have weight limit in some classes so barrel length vs profile and rate of taper can all come into play. It comes down to if the velocity gains and sability from longer barrel are worth giving up stifness from heavier profile.

I have shot a lot of 308Win in my lifetime I own 2 rifles in 308 Win to this day. I have used it in NRA High Power back when cars still had carburators and manual chokes, silhouettee, Palma, F TR and for hunting. I grew up with the M24 being a regular sight.

Here goes a European Champion F-TR shooters take on the 308 Win. https://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/gunweek0104/
Click to expand...

Sunday GunDay: SWN-Winning F-TR Rig of Champ Peter Johns « Daily Bulletin

Talented F-Class shooter Peter Johns has been on a tear the last couple years. He won the F-TR Division at the 2020 Berger SW Nationals (SWN), after finishing second in 2019. His SWN win came on the heels of stellar performances in 2019.
bulletin.accurateshooter.com bulletin.accurateshooter.com
 
Is a 308 with 115/125 g bullets REALLY an FTR rifle? I know that it complies with IFCRA, but....FTR developed from Palma, which came from military shooting. Spirit of the sport?

Is there an argument for any calibre to be used in FTR, provided a bipod, rather than a rest is used? We do have an FPR class in NZ ( Magazine cut receiver, bipod or bag, and calibre to 8mm) which I enjoy, with a 6BR and a 6.5SLR.
 
I’ve seen a number of FTR shooters put up winning scores with 155.5s at 600 yds.

Just some numbers from JBM, At 2900 FPS…

At 300m the wind drift difference between something heavier (168 class) and the 155s is about 0.1“ per MPH of full value wind. (About 1” per 10 mph).

At 300 the difference in the Sierra 155[2156] and the Berger 155.5 is about 0.1“ in a 10 MPH full value crosswind.

I’d suggest for your application build a 1:12 or a 1:13 with a 28 to 30 inch tube and shoot the Sierras. They are typically available in 500 ct boxes, cheaper than Berger and more available.

Personally, I’d build a 223 and shoot 90vld’s, but that’s me.
 
NZ_Fclass said:
Is a 308 with 115/125 g bullets REALLY an FTR rifle? I know that it complies with IFCRA, but....FTR developed from Palma, which came from military shooting. Spirit of the sport?
Click to expand...

By that logic, is anything longer than magazine length, or heavier than 156gn compliant with the 'spirit of the sport'?

Good luck with that.
 
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