Received concentricity gauge today. Time to start playing golf?

[Danattherock]

Dan,

I share your pain.... been there.... still doing it.

I don't have a 21st Century Concentricity gauge, but have an Accuracy one Concentricity gauge (which is similar). Run out for me varies depending on how much pressure I set the needle of the gauge on the round, and where it is positioned on the case neck (or bullet if checking a seated round). Is there a right way to do this? I don't know. Maybe one of the experts can provide some insight....

Good luck,
-Bob

Thinking the same. I angled the indicator ball down on the bullet enough to make the dial move 1/2 revolution then. Tightened the set screw. Thought was to be sure it was touching firmly enough to cover any variation. When I first set it too light, looked like low runout but appeared as if it wasn't touching bullet at times during the revolution. Not sure. Again, would have expected some kind of instructions in the box.


Dan

 

[Danattherock]

I put this on first post also, don't want anyone seeing this thread to think the 21st Century gauge is sub par, when the issue was with me.




UPDATE: wheel working fine now, day after posting. Heard from John at 21st overnight. It was excess case lube. Wheel works great now, nothing changed. Case lube must have dried over night. I need to find a more effective way to get case lube off. Gauge works great. High end stuff.



Dan

 

[LawrenceHanson]

It’s been my experience that the practical effects of loaded runout, when actually measured on the target, are often over-rated. In my opinion loaded runout is relatively insignificant compared to several other factors that determine how well we can shoot.

The way I see it there are two separate issues involved with this topic. The first is whether or not loaded runout makes any measurable difference in your groups. And second is how to go about minimizing loaded runout.

I am sure there are a few guys who have the skills and fine-tuned equipment that can actually detect a difference in loaded runout on the target, but I’m not one of them. In my case the wind, mirage, gun handling technique, bench set up, equipment tune, and load tune cause minute details like loaded runout to simply become lost in the noise. I have taken loaded runout seriously for many years and have segregated my ammunition based on loaded runout and tracked the on-target results. Periodic review of my targets over time has shown no obvious trends in accuracy. And that’s from all of my rifles including factory hunting rifles, varmint rifles, and benchrest rifles.

However, I do feel that for the precision shooter, measuring loaded runout does have benefits. It can be useful in that it helps you determine the quality of your reloading equipment and allows you to identify deficiencies in individual tools or processes and correct them. This provides you with peace of mind that you have done all you can to produce straight rounds. But be prepared to spend some time and money making that happen. There can be many variables associated with consistently loading straight ammunition and figuring it out could take quite a bit of trial and error.

 

[dkhunt14]

I like the die wax. It seems to be a lot easier to get off then that greasy RCBS stuff. Matt

 

[Danattherock]

The rcbs lube is pretty greasy stuff. Might start tumbling loaded rounds for 15 minutes or so in walnut with some flitz. Some change in my process will be needed to keep the rubber ring on the 21st Century wheel clean.


Dan

 

[Danattherock]

However, I do feel that for the precision shooter, measuring loaded runout does have benefits. It can be useful in that it helps you determine the quality of your reloading equipment and allows you to identify deficiencies in individual tools or processes and correct them. This provides you with peace of mind that you have done all you can to produce straight rounds...

That's my main objective. Thanks for the insightful post. It is very appreciated.


Dan

 

[thefitter]

...In my case the wind, mirage, gun handling technique, bench set up, equipment tune, and load tune cause minute details like loaded runout to simply become lost in the noise...

Agreed

 

[MrMajestic]

Dan, if you are Mag feeding what do you think the violent ride into the chamber does for your runout? ;D As for the indicator setup, are you looking for angular or coaxial error? For angular I would keep it out as far on the major diameter as I could. For coaxial you would need to check both close to the case and out to the end of the major diameter. Use as little pressure on the indicator needed for the range you are looking at and watch using sharp angles on the needle as this will induce measuring error.

Speak English

I want to know what you mean. I bought this gauge to measure runout. And boy, how did it. Ha ha. I need to learn what parts of the case you guys measure.

Dan, Am I to take this as it being too early in your development to discuss the 21 degrees of freedom of any 3 axis Machine Tool? ;D Sorry just having fun with you!
Put the little ball on the end of the pointy thing out as far as you can on the top straight part of the bullet. Apply enough pressure to make the watch looking part to show some time. Spin the case and when the clock stops spinning counter clockwise(backwards) make sure it doesn't look like it did before you put pressure on it. Also make sure you don't push it to hard or it will stop going clockwise before you make it to the top. When it stops going up lift the bullet a little to make sure it still has room to move the watch hand. Sorry again! ;D

 

[Danattherock]

One in every crowd. ;D

It made sense, thanks. Last night I was putting too much pressure on the indicator dial, making the needle turn half a revolution or more. Today I just had it move about 10 thou and locked set screw. Seemed to run a bit smoother.


Would a Forster ultra seating die reduce runout compared to a 'normal' seating die?

Read lots of old threads, sounds like a common upgrade to address runout. Heading out to shoot now. Curious what my consistently inconsistent rounds do. Hah.


Dan

 

[zipollini]

Just some misc. thoughts on the thread.

1. Lot's of conversation about loaded round runout but not much about case runout and indexing of cases in chamber. David Tubb talks about this in his 2 reloading videos. A little dated but still very good info that every reloader should probably think about or at least be aware of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUnrYp0NH38

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Igse-APgpEc

2. Another thing that I think I like about the 21st Century conc. gauge is that it appears not to use any magnets to hold all the tool holders to the base like the Accuracy One. Looks like the 21st Century tool holders are spring loaded. Magnets and dial indicators are a really bad combination.

3. Case lube - Some have mentioned problems with case lube and the conc. gauge. I use One Shot spray lube which works great for me and it dries very quickly. I have to believe that once dry it wouldn't effect the gauge readings. One can also easily wash off the One Shot by soaking in soapy water after sizing like I do.

4. As to Danattherocks question regarding reducing runout by changing to a different seater - might want to change over to Wilson hand dies and 21st Century Hydro arbor press like the benchrest guys use. I just got a setup and it is INCREDIBLE !!! Check out those web pages

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/reloading-dies/rifle-dies/micro-adjust-bullet-seaters-prod65610.aspx

http://www.21stcenturyshooting.com/Hydro_Bullet_Seater.php

 

[Danattherock]

Thanks for sharing some thoughts. Really glad you chimed in. Thanks for the video links as well. That's certainly some new info for me.


I'm interested in a Redding competition or Forster seating die. That's a purchase I would make if I thought it would address my runout issues. Guess an upgraded seating die will only do so much good without neck turning. So that is a soon to be purchase I suspect. Assuming I'm on track, any suggestions on the mentioned seating dies would be appreciated.



Dan

 

[zipollini]

I've used the Forster Ultra Micrometer seater die for all my 6XC loads the last year. Loaded runout was less that .001 inch so I sold my Hornady concentricity gauge. Just didn't need it anymore. Have switched over to the Wilson hand dies and 21st Century hydro arbor press for the pressure gauge on the press.

http://www.forsterproducts.com/store.asp?pid=36163

 

[Danattherock]

Thanks man. Just needed someone, anyone to say buy it. Ha ha. Just ordered one. Now all my runout will be 0.001". Whew, sure feels better having that done.


Dan

 

[thefitter]

Dan, if you are Mag feeding what do you think the violent ride into the chamber does for your runout? ;D As for the indicator setup, are you looking for angular or coaxial error? For angular I would keep it out as far on the major diameter as I could. For coaxial you would need to check both close to the case and out to the end of the major diameter. Use as little pressure on the indicator needed for the range you are looking at and watch using sharp angles on the needle as this will induce measuring error.

Speak English




I want to know what you mean. I bought this gauge to measure runout. And boy, how did it. Ha ha. I need to learn what parts of the case you guys measure.

Dan, Am I to take this as it being too early in your development to discuss the 21 degrees of freedom of any 3 axis Machine Tool? ;D Sorry just having fun with you!
Put the little ball on the end of the pointy thing out as far as you can on the top straight part of the bullet. Apply enough pressure to make the watch looking part to show some time. Spin the case and when the clock stops spinning counter clockwise(backwards) make sure it doesn't look like it did before you put pressure on it. Also make sure you don't push it to hard or it will stop going clockwise before you make it to the top. When it stops going up lift the bullet a little to make sure it still has room to move the watch hand. Sorry again! ;D

Too funny!!

 

[danny]

Got the 21st Century Concentricity Gauge today. Very high quality, but the wheel stopped working after 15-20 rounds being checked. Case lube a likely culprit as I don't tumble after loading, just wipe with a towel. Suspect the cases will need to be cleaned better after resizing for this tool to work. Ball bearings are smooth as they can be. Wheel turns smoothly but case doesn't. Case lube I'm almost certain. It's a very high quality feeling tool.

UPDATE: wheel working fine now, day after posting. Heard from John at 21st overnight. It was excess case lube. Wheel works great now, nothing changed. Case lube must have dried over night. I need to find a more effective way to get case lube off. Gauge works great. High end stuff.

Surprised no instructions came with it. Guess most folks buying high end stuff like this don't require them. I'm not sure how to set the indicator up. Little set screw and infinite ways to angle it. Doubt I'm using this tool to its potential. Which is apparent. But the numbers below were checked, then double checked not using wheel, and remained the same more or less. +/- half thou fluctuation.

Big question, how far off the brass should I have this little ball indicator? I am off the brass far enough to have another ball indicator between mine and the brass. What I mean, I have the indicator ball touching the bullet with pressure, what distance from the case mouth should this ball be? Pic below.

Anyway, I pretty much suck as it turns out. Been reading all you guys talking about 1-2 thou of runout. Hah. I will list below my first findings. Uniformed, trimmed within 0.001" on Forster, primer pockets shiny, wt sorted Lapua, with 77 SMK gently seated using the 180 turn advice I got here after half seating. Redding Deluxe 3 die set. Shoulder set back 0.005" per my new Hornady headspace gauge. Rock Chucker. Talked to the bullets. Played music. I was quite proud of them yesterday when I made them. Time to start playing golf I guess. What's the use, love golf too, and suck at it as well. Ha ha.

What do these numbers mean? What should I be doing differently?



My variation in thou...

7
3.5
6
6
3.5
3
2.5
6.5
2.5
7
4.5
3
4
3
4
3
4.5
3
3
2.5
1.5
4
3.5
1
3
6
5

Dan

Things are never bad enough to start playing Golf.

Danny

 

[JFrank]

Even though this is a 4 year old thread, I think it’s understood now that most runout is introduced during sizing rather then seating.
I would also challenge taking rounds .001-003 mark in color then do the same with.004-.006 with a different color , shoot them side by side and report back of any poi variations.
J

 

[varget204]

You need to Match Prep your brass,your loaded rounds should be .001 or less no more than .003,.002 would be a lot better.If your resized cases are Not concentric,your loaded round will Never Be concentric

 

[Bart B.]

Put it to you this way..... if you play with a concentricity gauge to the point where you actually take your "crooked" rounds and try and straighten them it's time to throw the baby out with the bath water. Lol.

I have used a 338 caliber bullet puller collets gripping 30 caliber ammo case necks with. 006" bullet run out then pushing on the case head to bend the neck back to .002" or less run out. Sub MOA accuracy happens thereafter. Well over MOA originally.

Too bad none of the commercial run out gauges hold cases headspacing on their shoulder align like they are when fired. Any case out of round condition at case body resting points can alter run out readings.

 

[Fotheringill]

I have the tool with the wheel. A machinist pal tried it out and raised the wheel away and used his thumbs to rotate the case. So much for the rubber wheel.

 

[prwhite]

Golf and shooting are very similar games. Never ending list of improvements and equipment to facilitate a better game!

Don't forget the part about the wind!