real world agg's from a big bore ??

[george]

what is a good 100 yard AGG out of a long range,big bore))BR rifle.
to me if it dont go in the .2's it wont win. but that's small bore 6mm or less.
people tell me that .4's .5's with the heavy bullets 180 and up are the norm for winning rifles.

 

[Cheechako]

george

People who tell you that 4s and 5s at 100 yards will produce a winning combo at 1000 yards probably do not win very many 1000 yard matches. Think about it. A .5 MOA agg at 100 equals a .7 to 1.0 MOA agg at 1000.

Just my opinion, but if your rifle will not shoot tiny holes at 100 it will not shoot tiny groups at 1000. By tiny I mean aggs in the 2s which means groups that are in the 1s some of the time.

Ray

 

[george]

man i'm with you !
people are telling me that the high BC with a low ES will take up the slack at long range.......i just can't see it happ'n but i've be wrong a time or 2

 

[mattdienes]

If your rifle doesn't shoot small at a 100yds it will not shoot small at 1000 !But I feel there are many shooters who feel different about this,so my thoughts are they can't aim small to shoot small at 100yds,the guns capable,but the shooters aren't.There is no magic funnel that the bullets can go through to make the groups shrink at longer distances.If its shooting bigger than 1/2moa the whole way to 1000yds,givin nice conditions-key)you won't be taken much fake wood home.

 

[george]

i'm happy to report my .284 is in the .2's with RL22 and a Burger 180VLD.....now for some long range test'n

 

[FURMAN]

I have to disagree with the statements that if a rifle/bullet will not group less than .5 at 100 that it will not do so at longer distances. If you do some research I think you would see that your theory has been dis proven with real life shooting. I have an article in which the new savage F/TR was tested. The worst loads at 100yds were the best at 500yds. I also do not think that a shooter who is not capable at 100yds would be any better at 500yds.

 

[billmo]

I have to disagree with the statements that if a rifle/bullet will not group less than .5 at 100 that it will not do so at longer distances. If you do some research I think you would see that your theory has been dis proven with real life shooting. I have an article in which the new savage F/TR was tested. The worst loads at 100yds were the best at 500yds. I also do not think that a shooter who is not capable at 100yds would be any better at 500yds.

Your statement Sir will not hold true either with different loads
Example - Load # 1 - bugholes at 100 yds. tight at 500 yds.

Load # 2 - bugholes at 100 yds. spray paper at 500 yds.

Point is no bullets re-act the same with different loads whether
it be VLD, FB, or whatever. Each load must have it's own test. However, I have yet to see open groups at 100 yds. and stellar accuracy at 500 yds. from any caliber from .223 to 300 RUM. Just my opinion and observations. Bill

 

[billmo]

Donovan, I agree 100% but, as we have promptly discussed in the past one man's findings may not hold true and carry over into the next man's. That's why I say every load combination has to be tested in the firearm and with the shooter each time. Otherwise, you are just spinning your wheels. Bill

 

[Rust]

George - I've spent a few years on the steep side of the learning curve mainly for the 6.5 X 284 and .308 and I've got to say that I've never even considered what one of my rifles would agg at. For instance...

My 6.5 X 284. When I first started with it I tried the old style 140 gr SMKs and they were extremely accurate,in the .1s for a couple of groups I actually took the time to measure) at 100 yards during initial load developement. Worked well at 600 and 800. Fell apart at 900 and 1,000. Awhile later I tried some 139 Scenars which didn't shoot quite as well at 100 yards but hold up extremely well at 900 and 1,000. Of course it wasn't quite that simple, I had to refine every phase involved in shooting the rifle from a different chambering reamer to learning how to consistantly anneal brass. Once the final load was arrived at I haven't changed anything after three barrels, CCI primer, 139 Scenar, Lapua brass and whatever amount of H4350,depending on the lot number of powder and the barrel) will get me to 2950 fps.

Then there is the .308. Shoots like a dream at 100 or 200, not so good at range. Good thing I don't mind having my butt handed to me on a regular basis. But it's getting there.

So I don't bother considering what the agg is. I am more concerned with whether or not the rifle will handle a 20 round string, whether the ES/SD are in single digit, reading the wind, and maintaining cool and calm behind the trigger,lost more than one match by getting overexcited and stupid but then someone had to come in last).

I leave aggs to the short range boys, their stuff is accurate enough that they need aggs to determine a winner, at 1,000 it's usually pretty obvious after a 20 round string who won.

 

[FURMAN]

I have to disagree with the statements that if a rifle/bullet will not group less than .5 at 100 that it will not do so at longer distances. If you do some research I think you would see that your theory has been dis proven with real life shooting. I have an article in which the new savage F/TR was tested. The worst loads at 100yds were the best at 500yds. I also do not think that a shooter who is not capable at 100yds would be any better at 500yds.

Your statement Sir will not hold true either with different loads
Example - Load # 1 - bugholes at 100 yds. tight at 500 yds.

Load # 2 - bugholes at 100 yds. spray paper at 500 yds.

Point is no bullets re-act the same with different loads whether
it be VLD, FB, or whatever. Each load must have it's own test. However, I have yet to see open groups at 100 yds. and stellar accuracy at 500 yds. from any caliber from .223 to 300 RUM. Just my opinion and observations. Bill

I am not sure what your point is about each bullet needing its own test. I was simply stating that any given bullet might possibly shoot better moa at longer distance than shorter. I have seen it with my own eyes. I have also read about others experiencing it. Some bullets simply hold better moa at longer distances.

 

[JERRYHM]

The best 1000 yard group was 3" with this load.

 

[george]

well my 51.5 of RL22 turned out to be a way lite load smoked 3 cases at a 1/4 mile match this weekend.
it was bugghole'n with that load at 100 but went all to he11 at 440.
long range is a new game to me..lite load an't going to trick it.
i never worried about FPS in short range BR.
but I'm learning fast

 

[Rust]

George - when I was using RL-22, it was about 52.5 gr for a velocity of 2950, also used Winchester primers which are a little hotter but reasonably consistant. For the way I've set up my rifle for the last few barrels with the current reamer 2950 has remained the sweet spot regardless of powder.

H4350, currently in use with a CCI primer, being a little faster powder seems to build up pressure a little faster and seal up the neck a little better. You won't get as much case fill but the lesser case fill has had no effect at all for me.

A chrono is a must for developing long range loads. Big velocity spreads equals big vertical at 1,000.

 

[george]

thanks Rust
i'll bump up the RL powder a little. i have a good load with 4831sc i'll use it at the next match.

 

[Rust]

George - be careful sneaking up on that 52.5 gr of RL-22, it's over any book load I've seen and while it worked fine in the chamber it was developed in, if yours seats the bullets a little shorter you may hit the target velocity a little sooner and a full 52.5 might be hot.