ShtrRdy
Silver $$ Contributor
Would you mind explaining differences in the groups you fire on that target? I need some groupification education.
Reading group shape and bullet holes
- Thread starter Tim Singleton
- Start date
It is a random but very typical tuner test target sent to me and fired by someone else. The point of it is to show that you can correlate tuner setting changes to load changes, be it powder or seating depth.
Most of us started out tuning by powder and seating, myself included. Before going to tuners, I typically went up or down in .3gr increments of n133 in a 6PPC..or in .003" seating depth changes.
I'll keep this short and just say, I wanted each tuner mark on my tuner to respond similarly to what I was used to doing with powder tuning. The target I posted shows that it worked out well, after a ton of testing to get to that end.
Bottom line, I can replicate Tim's group shapes using a single load and only moving the tuner in KNOWN increments, just like changing powder charge in KNOWN increments. Both should and do give predictable results. I believe the target I posted shows that pretty dang clearly. The results are remarkably similar AND repeatable.
Now, Tim doesn't want this to become a tuner thread, so lets take that elsewhere or move on. TIA--Mike
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
Ok
We are on to the HV match for Friday afternoon. I was lucky in the morning to have fairly mild conditions for the first 3 targets to let me get in a better tune. I had not had an opportunity to tune the day before the match. It had been a week since I set the gun up.
Let me say one of the most important things is picking the right time to start shooting! Just because the commence fire command happens doesn't mean you have to start shooting
It also takes a lot of time to get a decent handle on this. I have a lot of room for improvement there
For target 1, a decent head wind developed on my side of the range, pushing my bullet down more than I liked. I had to hold off a half bullet on 3 of the shots during the let-ups. The rifle is handling the head wind well. I came out with a nice! .100 to start the match. Great way to start.
On target 2 the strong headwind has now got a quartering left to right going on with quick let ups. The condition isn't staying around long enough to get more than one shot off. I chose to wait as long as I could no reason not to wait as hard as it was blowing. with 45 seconds left I had to go. Holding for each shot I got out of it with a .245 not great but fairly happy considering what I had to shoot
Target 3 is More of the same as target 2 except worse. The left push is worse. I again waited as long as I could to start shooting. I got out of it with a flat .200. Again, I'm pretty pleased with that, considering the conditions.
Target 4 Strong winds again for the first 5 minutes of the match. It did lighten up a little as you can tell by where the group formed. Ended up with a decent .217 I felt like for the conditions the gun should have shot a little better. But chose not to change anything for the last target
Target 5 The head wind was there again. I waited down to 45 seconds, all of the shooting down the line had been over since the 5-minute mark. The conditions let way up and I got out with a nice .209
I still felt that the gun was a little off it should have shot a little smaller than it did
Ended up in second place for the HV100 with a .1942 Wayne Campbell won it with a little .1830
That little 100 group carried me through. I decided that I needed to change something for the next day.
The rifle wasn't as sharp as it started with on target one that afternoon. I'm a .010 off the pace to win
But what to do?
We are on to the HV match for Friday afternoon. I was lucky in the morning to have fairly mild conditions for the first 3 targets to let me get in a better tune. I had not had an opportunity to tune the day before the match. It had been a week since I set the gun up.
Let me say one of the most important things is picking the right time to start shooting! Just because the commence fire command happens doesn't mean you have to start shooting
It also takes a lot of time to get a decent handle on this. I have a lot of room for improvement there
For target 1, a decent head wind developed on my side of the range, pushing my bullet down more than I liked. I had to hold off a half bullet on 3 of the shots during the let-ups. The rifle is handling the head wind well. I came out with a nice! .100 to start the match. Great way to start.
On target 2 the strong headwind has now got a quartering left to right going on with quick let ups. The condition isn't staying around long enough to get more than one shot off. I chose to wait as long as I could no reason not to wait as hard as it was blowing. with 45 seconds left I had to go. Holding for each shot I got out of it with a .245 not great but fairly happy considering what I had to shoot
Target 3 is More of the same as target 2 except worse. The left push is worse. I again waited as long as I could to start shooting. I got out of it with a flat .200. Again, I'm pretty pleased with that, considering the conditions.
Target 4 Strong winds again for the first 5 minutes of the match. It did lighten up a little as you can tell by where the group formed. Ended up with a decent .217 I felt like for the conditions the gun should have shot a little better. But chose not to change anything for the last target
Target 5 The head wind was there again. I waited down to 45 seconds, all of the shooting down the line had been over since the 5-minute mark. The conditions let way up and I got out with a nice .209
I still felt that the gun was a little off it should have shot a little smaller than it did
Ended up in second place for the HV100 with a .1942 Wayne Campbell won it with a little .1830
That little 100 group carried me through. I decided that I needed to change something for the next day.
The rifle wasn't as sharp as it started with on target one that afternoon. I'm a .010 off the pace to win
But what to do?
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Good thread, good info and nice shooting.
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
Agree i needed to have made a change on something going into target 4
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
On to Saturday for LV and Sporter
I wasn’t happy with how the gun did with the last two targets Friday afternoon
For me seating depth is KING and then powder charge. I decided to go on out about .002 in seating depth. Loaded ten rounds of 29.3 a 29.7 and a 30 grain for that morning
The 29.7 stuck them again
Target number 1 let’s back up to an early comment from @JEFFPPC about so many other things can be going on not always the load or the rifle. I said I planned to show the good the bad and the ugly so here is some BAD
I couldn’t have goofed up the first target of the day any worse. There was that headwind again but not as strong as the day before the first three shots went in a tiny hole just under the moth ball then I missed the let up and number 4 went a bullet hole high I went on to then shoot number 5 missing a pickup coming from the right To start off the day with a big .326 NOT good
So Jeff is correct it is not always the tune. I actually felt really good about the tune the bullet holes were nice and round dark black. The first three went into an ice pick group. I knew I just had flat screwed it up. So I decided to leave the load alone
Target 2 the conditions were just rough switching back and forth quicker than you could keep up
A lot of cussing from down the line. I waited all the way to 30 seconds and the flags just died went completely still As quick as I could aim and control the shot I managed to get them off in time. The gun shot well with a little .060 I’m confident in the tune for the next match
Target 3 Happy with the load and left it alone. I didn’t have to wait long for a decent condition. A slight left to right wind but fairly easy I did have to hold a quarter bullet hole on the last two shots
Came out with a nice .115 the gun is doing good
Target 4 the conditions have changed now the wind is from the right. I got the first two off and started pretty good missed a pickup and it knocked the third bullet low. Managed to get the last two shots into the group But the damage is done another fat .322
Target 5 just as soon as the commence fire came I jumped on a nice condition and came out with a nice .162
That’s some of the good and bad. I’m pretty happy with the load and got ready for the Sporter match after lunch
Won the LV100 with a nice .1970 thanks to the 060
I wasn’t happy with how the gun did with the last two targets Friday afternoon
For me seating depth is KING and then powder charge. I decided to go on out about .002 in seating depth. Loaded ten rounds of 29.3 a 29.7 and a 30 grain for that morning
The 29.7 stuck them again
Target number 1 let’s back up to an early comment from @JEFFPPC about so many other things can be going on not always the load or the rifle. I said I planned to show the good the bad and the ugly so here is some BAD
I couldn’t have goofed up the first target of the day any worse. There was that headwind again but not as strong as the day before the first three shots went in a tiny hole just under the moth ball then I missed the let up and number 4 went a bullet hole high I went on to then shoot number 5 missing a pickup coming from the right To start off the day with a big .326 NOT good
So Jeff is correct it is not always the tune. I actually felt really good about the tune the bullet holes were nice and round dark black. The first three went into an ice pick group. I knew I just had flat screwed it up. So I decided to leave the load alone
Target 2 the conditions were just rough switching back and forth quicker than you could keep up
A lot of cussing from down the line. I waited all the way to 30 seconds and the flags just died went completely still As quick as I could aim and control the shot I managed to get them off in time. The gun shot well with a little .060 I’m confident in the tune for the next match
Target 3 Happy with the load and left it alone. I didn’t have to wait long for a decent condition. A slight left to right wind but fairly easy I did have to hold a quarter bullet hole on the last two shots
Came out with a nice .115 the gun is doing good
Target 4 the conditions have changed now the wind is from the right. I got the first two off and started pretty good missed a pickup and it knocked the third bullet low. Managed to get the last two shots into the group But the damage is done another fat .322
Target 5 just as soon as the commence fire came I jumped on a nice condition and came out with a nice .162
That’s some of the good and bad. I’m pretty happy with the load and got ready for the Sporter match after lunch
Won the LV100 with a nice .1970 thanks to the 060
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Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
Alright on to Saturday afternoon and the conclusion of the 100 yard 4-Gun with the Sporter class
I was pretty happy with the rifle at the end of the morning match. but, most times the load wont last into the afternoon. The conditions had been cold with off and on showers for both days it had not warmed up much at all. The conditions had been pretty sporty all weekend with the exception of early Friday morning. there were a lot of 3s being shot not just me.
At this point in the match we are in second place after 3-guns behind one of the best Benchrester's on the planet
I knew the lighter load was not working at all. So i went to the line with 30 grains and the 29.7 load
same seating depth. Testing two shots of the 30 grain load on the sighter showed vertical. The 29.7 dotted again
Target 1 for Sporter. there was some switchy right left wind not terribly hard but switchy. I waited on something better But it just didnt happen and finally had to shoot. I dint hold over to the left enough on shot 4 and leaked on out of the group to the right. Then over held on the 5th shot and sent one slightly left making a wide .226. Not terrible for the conditions. Wayne shot a nice little dot of course
You have to hold for every shot and Im just not at the level of skill some of these guys are
Target 2 Repeat of the first target. I tested the 30 grain load and it still showed a little vertical. i had two rounds loaded at 30.2 and shot those and it went vertical with paper between the shots
I went back to the 29.7 load for the record. More of the switchy right left stuff with the winds harder now from the left. I got the group started and the impact was two bullets to the right and the conditions let up I missed it on the 4th shot and the bullet leaked out of the group to the left. I have 3 in a tiny knot and one slightly out to the left with hard switchy winds.
THIS is where the UGLY comes in @JEFFPPC I made one of the worst mistakes you can make. I STOPPED and went to the sighter! Now Im screwed the wind is just getting worse Im down to 30 seconds and have to do something. Took a sighter shot then went back up to the record and did not hold enough and popped it way out of the group to the right. AGG killing .486
Target 3 after licking my wounds and listening to some good advice from a buddy I tried to shake off that 486 and forget about it. The conditions are more of the same nasty stuff. except now the wind have switched and mostly from the right to left. I got the group started ok and managed to come out of it with a .215 I didnt hold enough on shot 4 and it went a little low and left out of the group
Target 4 the wind is still from right to left a little harder now BUT kind of steady I got out of it with a nice .176 really happy with the load in that condition. The 486 is all but forgotten . Funny how a little one will do that for you
Target 5 By this time I didnt even test my 30 grain load I had in my block. I have became over confident in how well the rifle did on the last target. I just shot two fouling shots and waited for a decent condition with my 29.7 load. There was a nice gently head wind came along I jumped on it and had 4 in a nice wad and number 5 went out the bottom for a big .259
Now it could be my load went away. It could be I got excited and yanked it out the bottom.
IDK But it sucked either way
For the Sporter to tell you how the conditions were even with the 486 I ended up with 4th place
Wrapping up the first leg of the 4-Gun tournament
UL-100 5 shot 7th place with my bag gun
HV-100 2nd place
LV-100 1st place
SP-100 4th place
4-Gun second place behind Wayne
I was pretty happy with the rifle at the end of the morning match. but, most times the load wont last into the afternoon. The conditions had been cold with off and on showers for both days it had not warmed up much at all. The conditions had been pretty sporty all weekend with the exception of early Friday morning. there were a lot of 3s being shot not just me.
At this point in the match we are in second place after 3-guns behind one of the best Benchrester's on the planet
I knew the lighter load was not working at all. So i went to the line with 30 grains and the 29.7 load
same seating depth. Testing two shots of the 30 grain load on the sighter showed vertical. The 29.7 dotted again
Target 1 for Sporter. there was some switchy right left wind not terribly hard but switchy. I waited on something better But it just didnt happen and finally had to shoot. I dint hold over to the left enough on shot 4 and leaked on out of the group to the right. Then over held on the 5th shot and sent one slightly left making a wide .226. Not terrible for the conditions. Wayne shot a nice little dot of course
You have to hold for every shot and Im just not at the level of skill some of these guys are
Target 2 Repeat of the first target. I tested the 30 grain load and it still showed a little vertical. i had two rounds loaded at 30.2 and shot those and it went vertical with paper between the shots
I went back to the 29.7 load for the record. More of the switchy right left stuff with the winds harder now from the left. I got the group started and the impact was two bullets to the right and the conditions let up I missed it on the 4th shot and the bullet leaked out of the group to the left. I have 3 in a tiny knot and one slightly out to the left with hard switchy winds.
THIS is where the UGLY comes in @JEFFPPC I made one of the worst mistakes you can make. I STOPPED and went to the sighter! Now Im screwed the wind is just getting worse Im down to 30 seconds and have to do something. Took a sighter shot then went back up to the record and did not hold enough and popped it way out of the group to the right. AGG killing .486
Target 3 after licking my wounds and listening to some good advice from a buddy I tried to shake off that 486 and forget about it. The conditions are more of the same nasty stuff. except now the wind have switched and mostly from the right to left. I got the group started ok and managed to come out of it with a .215 I didnt hold enough on shot 4 and it went a little low and left out of the group
Target 4 the wind is still from right to left a little harder now BUT kind of steady I got out of it with a nice .176 really happy with the load in that condition. The 486 is all but forgotten . Funny how a little one will do that for you
Target 5 By this time I didnt even test my 30 grain load I had in my block. I have became over confident in how well the rifle did on the last target. I just shot two fouling shots and waited for a decent condition with my 29.7 load. There was a nice gently head wind came along I jumped on it and had 4 in a nice wad and number 5 went out the bottom for a big .259
Now it could be my load went away. It could be I got excited and yanked it out the bottom.
IDK But it sucked either way
For the Sporter to tell you how the conditions were even with the 486 I ended up with 4th place
Wrapping up the first leg of the 4-Gun tournament
UL-100 5 shot 7th place with my bag gun
HV-100 2nd place
LV-100 1st place
SP-100 4th place
4-Gun second place behind Wayne
Attachments
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JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
Head winds. I head head or tail winds. But, I hate switchy even worse. Several times the past 2years with 360 switch as the condition the tailwind would hold the longest and I shot in that and did well but switching tough. Very interesting commentary Tim, thanks. A big mistake I see many make is afraid to jump in at fire or being afraid to wait until the end. It can become a guessing game. Good luck this summer you looking good. Love your flags, they tell the tale.
I try to avoid those head and tail winds, too. Sometimes they work but sometimes not. I think it's just harder to accurately judge intensity changes but there's quite a bit of vertical in a twitch from say 11-1 o'clock, too.
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
In sharing all this, I hoped to encourage anyone with the itch. To jump on in and join some type of competition shooting. It is the most enjoyable, frustrating and challenging thing I can think of
With short range there is NBRSA, IBS, group and score and UBR for score
Find something in your area and jump in!
With short range there is NBRSA, IBS, group and score and UBR for score
Find something in your area and jump in!
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
Yea. You are right about that. It did come to life pretty good finally
I haven't been shooting much this spring. I've been rebuilding things from Helene all spring
Good luck at the Super Shoot. Hate I'm going to miss it
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
Another thought. If you don't, you really should take your targets each afternoon and go back thru that match in your mind make notes on the target study the holes in the paper on the record and on the loads you tested on the sighter
With the level of competition these days It doesn't matter if it is Score or Group
You have to have a rifle capable of shooting a .1 to zero.
When you test on the sighter, it had better be two shots in the same hole
Like Jeff pointed out you have to battle the conditions, so if all it's capable of is a .220 and now you factor in conditions you are out of the running
With the level of competition these days It doesn't matter if it is Score or Group
You have to have a rifle capable of shooting a .1 to zero.
When you test on the sighter, it had better be two shots in the same hole
Like Jeff pointed out you have to battle the conditions, so if all it's capable of is a .220 and now you factor in conditions you are out of the running
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
I don't disagree about the tenth of powder. For that particular match, I was not using an electronic system
Back to basics for me this year. My Bruno measure is pretty good.
But my 29.7 load could have been 29.6 to 29.8.
Don't tell anyone
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Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
I would not argue at all.
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